<p>Hi all.
I am in a major biomedical program, and my work is paid by the NIH. I changed labs once, so I feel like I exhausted that option. Now my mentor is moving to another university, and I think he tries to use the opportunity to leave me behind. Admittedly, I was in his lab for less than a year and I still have to pass the qualifiers, but I still suspect that what he is trying is illegal and/or unethical.
What do you you think?</p>
<p>It’s typical that, when a PI moves to another university, he will only take late-stage PhD students with him, and early-stage students will switch to another lab at the university. But if you feel strongly about staying with your PI, you should be talking with him and with the relevant administrators in your program.</p>
<p>Some of the funding he has at your current university may not follow to his new university. That funding may be what’s supporting you at the moment.</p>
<p>The destination is somewhat better, so that the lab will definitely have more money.
The two places are very close - I can walk between them really.
The trouble is, for him I am a new student, but for the my current school I am not. I already have the credits required for graduation, but, on this project, I did not have the first committee meeting.
I can’t even start thinking about searching for a lab. It is only a few months since I turned down a few other people who were considering me, to go in this lab and be nicely stabbed in the back.
Should I go and see the dean of the destination school perhaps?</p>
<p>What he is doing is neither unethical nor illegal - it is an inevitable and routine result of professors moving from school to another. You will not be penalized for switching labs again in this instance, as it was not your fault. As mollie noted, it is standard for junior grad students such as yourself to remain behind at the university - you COULD transfer, but it will be on you to get accepted to the new school. While this kind of switch is discouraged (as it is usually not worth the effort and delay), it is possible. Note however that if the advisor really does not like you, transferring just makes sure that after transferring you would STILL need to find a new lab, and would probably not know about it until you got there!</p>
<p>I would go and talk to the head of your current department before you do ANYTHING with the other school. The norm in this case is to stay at your current program, so jumping ship is not likely to be taken well. Also, considering how far along you are, switching schools during a masters program seems silly - if you are that intent on working for this guy, apply to the new school as a PhD student.</p>
<p>I am 4th year PhD student.
Our local people will surely have no force upon my boss. I don’t want to use force, it’s no good to have an enemy in your mentor. I hoped that the destination school will provide carrots rather than sticks.</p>
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<p>While they may have more money in the future, that money might not be there now. It’s not like just because a professor’s at a good school money magically appears. They still need to write some new grants, set up their lab, etc. This all takes a considerable amount of time.</p>
<p>Usually, the only students that follow their advisor are those that are heavily vested in a project. Other options include getting a co-mentor at your current university, trying to finish up your work remotely at your current university (A few of my friends work in a computation field, and they’re finishing up their PhD at our school even though their advisor left over a year ago.), or find a new lab to join.</p>
<p>If you can walk to the other campus, why don’t you just strike an agreement with your mentor for him to mentor you from his other school? This happens all the time. You can work in his lab there and do the research you want but just get the degree from your current school. Especially if you are a fourth year. You may be too far along.</p>
<p>I’m a fourth year PhD student myself - really, we are soon to be fifth, since there is a month and a half left in this semester (!!!) - and I am on track to graduate next year. If my advisor announced today that he was leaving to move across the country to a better position, we’d be talking about how he could mentor me from there. I am too far along; I’m not moving across the country for one year. If he just went downtown to one of the other universities in my city - that’s even LESS reason for me to move. He’s right there!</p>
<p>As I said above, I am relatively new for the lab. It is also true that, in the beginning, the lab will waste some time with the move. A bunch of us are unloaded ahead of this dead time.
But I feel that a third lab during grad school would look ridiculous. I am certain the move was negotiated at the time I joined the lab (8 months ago!), and I feel cheated. If I also get to do the packing instead of working on my thesis, I will carry on being cheated.
I hoped there will be a rule imposed from outside (govt., school) that would force things one way or another.</p>
<p>There is no rule because every situation is different. One professor from my department recently left to go to another school across the country. One student followed, two stayed behind to finish up their PhDs with him mentoring remotely, another picked up a co-advisor, and two others decided to just find new groups.</p>
<p>The fact you’re a fourth year and only started in the group last year is just bad luck. Make your decision as to which of the alternatives you want to pursue, stick with it, and just deal with the fact life isn’t fair.</p>
<p>As another way to think about it, what would you be doing right now if your advisor had died or become incapable of performing his job? Lots of us work for advisors over sixty years old, and that’s a real concern we think about during every stage of our degree.</p>
<p>First, that was poor form of the PI to not tell you (confidentially, even) that they were considering a move IF they knew it at the time. However, I do know that sometimes opportunities are known to pop up very quickly, so it is possible they really had no clue. </p>
<p>A few years before I started at my school, another university in the state was heavily recruiting from our program (rude!). A couple PIs went over, including one with a new grad student. I believe he was 2nd year at the time, so it would have been his first real year with the lab. They came to an agreement where he would live and work in that city, but still be a student in our program with the same requirements (seminars, workshop, journal club, committee meetings, etc.). It’s not ideal, but it’s worked for him. </p>
<p>The first person I would have a meeting with would be the program or department director - whoever you think will genuinely care about your progress and future.</p>
<p>First, that was poor form of the PI to not tell you (confidentially, even) that they were considering a move IF they knew it at the time.</p>
<p>No, it’s not. Professors are under no obligation to tell their students (present or future) that they are considering a move, and it’s not poor form to not tell students. Some students don’t know how to keep their mouths shut, and think “confidentially” means “I can tell my very closest friend in the program as long as I swear them to secrecy.” It’s a risk you take when you choose to work with someone, which is why graduate students should select programs at which there are several people who can advise their work and who they would enjoy working with.</p>
<p>OP, if you don’t want to help your supervisor pack up the lab, don’t. But there will be no rule, so don’t expect one. This kind of thing happens all the time. Again, I ask, why don’t you simply ask your advisor if you can work with him from his new school while you stay at the old school. Instead of sitting around wallowing and imagining that you’ve been “cheated” somehow (you have not been), figure out how you are going to move forward and finish your degree.</p>
<p>@juillet</p>
<p>Perhaps the norms are different between fields, programs, individuals, etc. My boyfriend was considering two schools for his ph.d in a very specific field with relatively few PIs. He talked to them well ahead of time and they knew we had a two-body problem, and one was very upfront with him and told him she had put in a very serious application for a faculty position at a school across the country. </p>
<p>Similarly, I know that in my program there was some unrest among faculty due to a rather… unexpected outcome for a new facility. That said, I’ve asked all the PIs I’ve rotated with point blank if they feel there is a chance they will decide to leave if the facility never gets off the ground. Fortunately I’m here at the tail-end of the trouble, so it’s likely that anyone who was going to leave is gone, but I expect complete honesty from them and I feel I’ve gotten that. Tying yourself to a PI for 5+ years is a big deal and these kinds of open communication shouldn’t be discouraged on either end.</p>
<p>From my observations, a PI to be actively taking students months before he takes another position at another University is unusual. Things come up, and you never know what is happening behind the scenes, but usually if a PI is going to leave they have stopped taking students or are even letting students go a year prior to their departure. </p>
<p>H202, I agree that three labs in grad school looks pretty bad, but I didn’t understand why you haven’t passed your qualifiers yet, even when you’ve been at your university for a while.</p>
<p>I agree that getting a PhD is a tough game, and I see students faces obstacles that aren’t of their own making, which doesn’t seem fair. As a PhD student, I’ve been sorta lucky so far…</p>
<p>Perhaps the norms are different between fields, programs, individuals, etc. My boyfriend was considering two schools for his ph.d in a very specific field with relatively few PIs. He talked to them well ahead of time and they knew we had a two-body problem, and one was very upfront with him and told him she had put in a very serious application for a faculty position at a school across the country.</p>
<p>That was her choice, though. Professors/PIs always have the CHOICE to tell students about their plans to move, but they are not obligated to. The OP seems to be operating under the idea that it is some breach of ethics that his supervisor did not inform him about his plans, when it’s really not. Even if you ask them point-blank, it’s well within their rights to refuse to answer the question or to answer evasively.</p>
<p>Fortunately, as jack63 said, it’s highly unlikely that a PI will actively take students if they know they are going o move. More likely, an opportunity arose spontaneously and he decided to seize it.</p>
<p>I don’t think anyone is arguing that the PI was obligated to inform students of a move, just that it’s bad form if he was considering the move when the student joined the lab. Typically, a PI will stop taking new students in preparation for a move. However, we do not know the situation, and it is possible that the opportunity arose after the student had already joined the lab.</p>
<p>OP, this situation is unfortunate for you, but you need to just focus on finishing your degree. It could be much worse. I know PIs that have moved across the country and left their students behind to either find a new lab or settle for a long distance mentorship. It happens all the time. Even though he maybe should have given you a heads up, he is not required to and there are no laws to force him to bring you with him especially if you have not passes your qualifying exams. Like others have said, stay at your current university, and ask him if he would still be willing to continue to mentor you or co-mentor you. If the universities are within walking distance, this is such an easy solution that I don’t really understand why you are so upset. Is there anyone at your current university with whom your PI collaborates? It might be possible to move into that PI’s lab for a co-mentorship with your current PI. Otherwise, talk to the director of your graduate program about your options. As long as you finish your thesis, I don’t think being in 3 different labs will look terrible since it is due to extenuating circumstances.</p>
<p>To clarify one issue: I was admitted in an inter-departmental program that does not organize its own qualifiers. I passed the qualifiers in one department, where my first lab was affiliated. My new mentor is in a different department, and I had to take more classes and take a different exam. It’s a biomedical thing, so I was at least spared the first year biochem, cell bio and the likes. The exam is really the same, the same article critiques, project presentation, powerpoint and word files, but I need my new boss and another program director to be part of a new qualifiers committee.
I didn’t expect my boss to tell me the darkest secrets of the lab, but I find that it would have been easier for me to not be recruited, as long as he was not sure about the future of the underlings. Last year, I begged in other two labs for more than a month and was begged to join this lab all that time.
My boss took rotating students as recent as three months ago. In fact, I know professors who took rotating students and told them they are moving at the end of the rotation. I had a very bad experience in my first year, when a PI kept saying she’ll take me, “right after the next rotation”, for about 6 months, until the summer. Since the announcement, I saw my boss twice, and the only answer I get is “I don’t know, let’s see what we can do”.<br>
This is why I feel that in this university (top 50 in the world, no less!) we are really left to fend off for ourselves, and there is nobody to support me. I am learning more about this sort of double speak than about PAGE gels and immunoblots.</p>
<p>Well, graduate school isn’t 100% about learning your field. It’s also about learning to be an academic, and the social norms and politics that go along with that. But as others have said, your main focus should be what is going to get you out most efficiently.</p>