Reed College president praises and supports SAT

Parent Cafe
21

<p>Q."If you think about it, who really has to work under that kind of time pressure, besides race car drivers and production line workers?"</p>

<p>A.Engineers competing with another firm, scientists trying to get results in before the next written review for funding is due, doctors trying to stay abreast of the latest research, journalists making the print deadline, professors getting the exam to the secretary before it's too late to have it ready for class, chefs with customers waiting for their food, boy scouts getting the tents set up before the storm strikes...This world is all about working under deadlines. I once taught a lab class that started at 11 and was scheduled to end at 3. I had students who would be on step 3 (of 12) at 7 pm because they couldn't work at a normal pace. Did it make a difference? Well, I had a babysitter taking care of two little kids while I stayed around trying to help people who thought it was unrealistic to expect them to make deadlines. Babysitter didn't work for free.</p>

22

<p>I find it disturbing that so many people jump to the conclusion that the SATs measure something that is important to the exclusion of all else. I am tempted to do that, too, at times. After all, I was a winner at the CB game, repeatedly, and my kids are, too. But I have to tell you: My daughter's somewhat spotty GPA told as important a story about her as her gaudy SATs (and her writing portfolio showed what she was doing when she wasn't quite learning calculus. And CB may believe that my son is a 770 writer, but I've been reading his college essays, and if that's just a few ticks shy of the highest standard for high school kids then I'm Jean-Paul Sartre.</p>

<p>I agree with Diver (by the way, someone I respect enormously) that SATs are valuable, and they are still the only truly national test that lets students from different backgrounds and educational systems get compared to each other on a somewhat fair basis. But I hate it when people equate SAT scores with ability, or worth. They are one aspect, and only one aspect, of either, and a pretty partial measurement of it, to boot. </p>

<p>So . . . require SATs, use SATs, report SATs accurately, fine, but don't overvalue them, in the admissions process or in the rating process. And certainly don't let their overvaluation in the rating process wash back into admissions.</p>

23

<p>Well said, JHS.</p>

24

<p>I agree that many of us have to learn to work under deadlines
That chef tv reality show for example- is probably an extreme case-( that took any thoughts of restaurant work right out of * my * head let me tell you)
but while some jobs do require workers to perform under high stress- time pressured conditions, workers can also choose to work in fields or in jobs with less stress and more autonomy over how much pressure to live under.</p>

<p>Using the SAT- which in the past couple years has d/evolved to an even higher stakes test- with a longer more intense format, is going to keep some students out of higher education, who might have done well and gone on to even higher things.</p>

<p>While there are schools, like Reed and others, who have downplayed testing for admissions, not all high school college counselors know that/pass that information on to their students.</p>

<p>Students whose parents didnt attend college, are at a disadvantage for college preparation. Not only are they likely to be in a lower income bracket, and not be aware of the resources to help with paying for college, but they are going to know less about the courses that you need to be ready for college, and the steps that have to be taken years before the student applies.</p>

<p>If we are going to improve access to higher education in this country, not only do we have to more fully support public universities ( as well as K-12), but we need to support schools and students who don't want to go the college board route.</p>

<p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAT%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAT&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

25

<p>As for time presssure, which line would you rather be in at the bank? MacDonald's? the post office? the gas station? In fact, I'm hard pressed to think of a job where working effectively doesn't matter. Even poets are expected to produce more than one poem in a lifetime ;)</p>

26

<p>I'm wondered about some of President Diver's contentions:</p>

<p>
[quote]
Those institutions that have adopted the SAT-optional strategy rationalize their decision by claiming that standardized tests are faulty measures of academic ability.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I don't think anyone disputes that SATs corrolate highly with first-year college GPA. The real argument for doing away with SAT requirements is not that the test is flawed, but that many analyses show that SATI scores add very little predictive value once you have GPA, class rank, HS schedule, recommendations, demographic data on the student and his/her high school, etc. This is not a sexy argument, so it turns up on admissions web pages translated into admissions-speak as "the SAT does not give us a full picture of your potential," but let's give the SAT-optional institutions SOME credit. </p>

<p>
[quote]
Those who drop SAT or ACT requirements say that doing so helps open admissions to more members of certain racial, ethnic and socioeconomic groups that tend, on average, to score lower on these tests. Dropping the requirement encourages such students to apply and makes it easier for the college to admit them. But if the scores on these tests are in fact evidence of academically relevant skills, shouldn’t the college know how much of a deficit the student will need to overcome if he or she is admitted?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>. . . this becomes a bit circular: underrepresented individuals can't be admitted if the admissions requirements discourage them from applying. </p>

<p>
[quote]
Making SAT scores optional is the latest instance of a disheartening trend in college admissions. In the rush to climb the pecking order, educational institutions are adopting practices, and rationalizations for those practices, unworthy of the intellectual rigor they seek to instill in their students.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>This smacks of accusing peer schools of bad faith. A review of the data produced by institutions like Bates and Mount Holyoke, for example, shows that the thought that went into their policies was both deep and rigorous, and climbing the ratings ladder was problaby not much of a factor. Bates, for example, reports the SAT scores of both submitting and non-submitting students to USNews, and other schools are similarly scrupulous.</p>

<p><a href="http://www.bates.edu/ip-optional-testing-20years.xml%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.bates.edu/ip-optional-testing-20years.xml&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

27

<p>What does serving people at McDonald's have to do with higher level thinking?
Midmo gave a pretty good example with the slow lab students. However, filling in bubbles for 3 hours and then writing the perfect 5 paragraph essay is a different skill from being able to work through a lab or finish an engineering job.</p>

28

<p>*As for time presssure, which line would you rather be in at the bank? MacDonald's? the post office? the gas station? *</p>

<p>well-- although standing in line doesn't take any skill- and I am not sure I understand the comparision- we can also make choices to avoid those sorts of time pressures.
I go to the gas station in the evening ( which is also a better time environmentally to fill your tank) when they don't have lines- I can do my banking/bill paying online- I dont go to the postoffice as I usually use a smaller service , but our local post office allows you to print & pay for packing slips online and then drop it off at the post office at your leisure </p>

<p>Working effectively, I don't think has a lot to do with your worth as a college applicant being decided by how you performed on one test, on one day.
However, if we decide that that slice of time is representative of potential and accomplishment for high school students, perhaps salaries should be decided by performance and output by one day- chosen by a panel of course ;)</p>

29

<p>EK4--you miss my point. I was thinking of the time pressure of the EMPLOYEE looking out at the line. I'd rather be in the line where the employee works quickly!</p>

30

<p>What I'd like to see is a requirement that all colleges have their seniors retake the SATI before graduation. Then, let's compare incoming SAT scores with outgoing ones. If they are a measure of academic ability, it should be interesting to see which schools see substantial increases, and by how much. Just a thought...</p>

31

<p>oops, wrong thread</p>

32

<p>Carolyn:</p>

<p>What would colleges do with students whose entering SAT scores were already in the upper 700s? That's the problem with the SAT ceiling where it currently is.</p>

33

<p>marite:
Do you have any idea why the College Board recalibrated SATs in the 80's to add about 100 points to scores? There are an awful lot of kids who get almost perfect scores these days.</p>

34

<p>If you believe that the SAT is a test of general aptitude for college work, you would not expect a significant increase in scores as a function of 4 years of college. It is not a test of academic ability or achievement. It is probably best to think of it as a kind of intelligence test, albeit a narrow, culturally biased test that tries to predict academic success at the college level. What you can expect from the SAT is that it will correlate positively with one's GRE scores.</p>

35

<p>spinner:</p>

<p>The claim made by the CB is that the old scale no longer reflected the median scores. This may well be due to the fact that more students were taking the SAT, both because more students were intending to go to college than previously, and more students were encouraged by their high schools to take the SAT, whatever their plans might be.</p>

<p>So it is correct that many more students than before got perfect scores. The verbal section actually had a higher jump. In the math section, some previously high scores (in the 700s range) actually dropped ten points .</p>

<p>Whatever the reasons, the ceiling effect has gotten far worse. </p>

<p>My main reason for supporting the SAT is not that it predicts anything with any degree of accuracy (except for Talent Search where the ceiling effect is fairly negligible) but that it helps put GPAs and class ranks in a national perspective.</p>

36

<p>Although - I'm asking this as a question, I don't know the answer - I don't know that, with today's high school profiles chock full of information, colleges need SATs to evaluate GPA and class rank. They have the info on grade ranges of the school, #/% of kids with A averages and on down. I think they can see grade inflation vs. a stiff grading rubric right there.</p>

37

<p>Thanks, Marite.
As much as the testing frenzy has driven my kids crazy, I have to agree with you that it gives the schools some information and most seem to take it for what it is.
Unfortunately, in this highly competitive environment, it may be too often used to create a cutoff so that schools can relieve the overloaded admissions folks.</p>

38

<p>Part of the reason why the SAT only measures freshman year grades is that more talented students gravitate towards tougher majors. If all freshmen take some form of calculus, the 800 math kids will probably ace the course, and the 600m kids will struggle. Come sophomore year, the excellent math students are chem, physics, math, and engineering majors (notoriously grade deflation) and the low-math scorers are doing humanities/social sciences, which generally give out higher grades. Not true for everyone, but the general trend is strong enough to wipe out further predictive value of the SAT. </p>

<p>I do think that the SAT does measure things. I cannot help but think of my class valedictorian who cheated his way to his grades. His PSAT scores were much lower than one would expect - something like a 600 on the verbal section, not something you would expect from a val of an excellent school. He didn't read much, never bothered to work on his writing, and never really bothered to learn more than necessary to get As. It is said that the best way to increase your SAT verbal score is to read. Again, I don't wonder and, in many cases, don't think that the SAT is an inaccurate measure of subject mastery and native intelligence (as a highly g-loaded test). </p>

<p>The problem comes when colleges - or anyone - looks at the SAT mechanically. Hypothetically - high math, low verbal? Recommendations from English teachers mediocre, considering the grades? Neverthless, highly polished essay? Doesn't that tell you something? Like the student clearly tests well but lacks passion for language and reading? Now imagine a high verbal, okay math, student from an ailing inner-city school with top grades and good recs. Probably a voracious reader who would benefit from a top-notch education.</p>

<p>The SAT will tell a story, if anyone bothers to parse out the details. </p>

<p>Just saying.</p>

39

<p>I wonder if Diver knows that his position is borne out by one of Reed's former professors. When I was at Reed in the mid-80s, a philosophy prof did a study that confirmed a clear correlation between SAT performance and GPA among Reed students.</p>

40

<p>As much as it might not be understood on this board, not every school can fill up on perfect applicants. High GPA kids are the norm, high SAT kids will always be far rarer. The fact that someone wasn't challenged in HS or has a personality conflict with some teachers, because Jesus Christ, they have the cahones to HAVE a personality, shouldn't disqualify someone from admission. Any good sociologist will tell you that one of the primary purposes of public school is to control the population, and those who thrive are the ones most willing to work to a given system. These aren't our entrepreneurs, our inventors, our great thinkers. At least not all of them. The SAT gives colleges the oppurtunity to see academic potential beyond GPA, and that's why SAT correlates more strongly with ADMISSION than GPA.</p>