<p>PS - Northstarmom - I think alum interviews helped her alot. She truly loves to learn and any adult who spends 10 minutes with her can't help but see her genuine enthusiasm for learning. Her interests are broad and self-generated. She is also someone who would never brag and I think her lack of conceit or entitlement would be apparent.</p>
<p>makes me think about grade inflation... grades are higher today, but could it just be due to better students?</p>
<p>"makes me think about grade inflation... grades are higher today, but could it just be due to better students?"</p>
<p>I'm going to guess that it's a little of both. Teachers today know that giving low grades (however deserved) to students can bring on the wrath of self-esteem-fearing parents. </p>
<p>I wonder about the great kids in the NY Times article who are getting turned down by the HYPs. Are the schools that they are attending benefiting from the presence of this crop of "near-Ivy-Leaguers"? </p>
<p>And what happens to these Ivy-rejected students? Do they grow up and have kids that, like them, are pushed toward applying for the Ivies? Or is it just the opposite, that the Ivy-spurned students will develop almost a generational disdain for the American dream of a HYP education?</p>
<p>One final thing: As the rejected Ivy applicants go to their "second-choice" schools, excel and enter the workplace, and as they become alumni contributors to their colleges, will we gradually see a shift in power among U.S. universities? The Ivies, granted, have a multi-billion-dollar head start. But wouldn't this shift in the demographics of the "second-choice" schools also make those universities wealthier (and better) in the long run?</p>
<p>What I take out of this article is that colleges ought to deephasize ECs. They are not allowing kids to be kids. They can't work at a car wash over the summer they have to find a cure for cancer. The whole idea behind ECs is supposed to be to look beyond just grades, but it is kids who are consumed by the process, who are going to be the kids with grades anyway, who engage in all of these putatively fascinating ECs. The author of the next great American novel will have worked in a car wash for the summer when he was 16. He will not have been involved in fancy ECS.</p>
<p>Wow ... so if taking lots of AP's (while scoring well on them), joining lots of clubs, doing a lot of EC's, being active in your community WHILE being an outstanding individual isn't enough to get into Harvard, I really don't know how to get into Harvard.</p>
<p>You got it. It's a certain <em>je ne sais quois</em> and nobody knows what it is.</p>
<p>I think the message is ultimately liberating - if there's no discernible formula, kids can ultimately stop trying to please some anonymous admissions committee and instead make choices in courses and e.c.s that appeal to them rather than trying to please someone else.</p>
<p>However, It inversely can make those who apply that much more nervous about their applications. If you know you don't seem to have nearly as stellar credentials as others applying and know that these interviewers have seen such results, then how am I supposed to feel about applying to a school like MIT or Harvard?</p>
<p>I go to a competitive high school in Virginia with a great AP program and one of the hardest grading scales in the country. However since 1973, our school has only ever sent 2 students to Cornell, 1-2 to MIT, and we have NEVER had a student get into Harvard, Stanford, and other really competitive schools.</p>
<p>I talk to some alumni for colleges I want to go to and they all seem really positive about kids getting in and seem to downplay some of the selectivity rating that these types of schools have. Most likely for some of the underlying reasons in this article. I'm sure they would be thrilled say that you have no chance when you've obviously tried.</p>
<p>All this type of article does for someone like me, is make me feel as if there is no real chance at my reach schools. It's not going to matter if I go into things like how my parents actually resisted allowing me to even take to an honors class, let alone by the time I graduate have 12 AP scores. I live in an area that has a magnet school that MIT even knows by name. First thing everyone would ask me when I was up at MIT was if I went to that school when I even mentioned living in Virginia. Going into those types of obstacles will only look like I'm trying to hide any blemish from my record, not trying to share experiences from which I grew as a person. </p>
<p>It looks from this article that it isn't the obstacles you've encountered, or how you've taken advantage of what you have... but yet the results you have produced and who you are in other non-personality regions.</p>
<p>It also makes me think that an interview also doesn't reveal too much about how a student has changed or taken advantage of much, though I can't say for certain because I haven't gone to one. Though, how is an interviewer going to react if I go into how my parents refused to let me apply to that magnet school, "Because I'd just fail the test anyways", how my parents resisted allowing me to take accelerated courses (I had to literally change the course form after they signed it so I could take them), and even hid medical conditions for years that may of affected my academic performance? </p>
<p>As I said before, it'll only look like I'm trying to make excuses despite the fact I wouldn't change much, if anything. I loved my classes, I loved my high school experience, and I only wish I knew a few things earlier, or that I could've applied to that magnet school.</p>
<p>That's not to say I don't want to get in any longer or that I still won't apply, but at the same time it seems like any actual obstacles I had against me really in the end didn't help too much as far as competitive schools go, and in the end none of my college apps most likely will reflect them.</p>
<p>Shoe66 hit it on the head:</p>
<p>In 100 years, Harvard won't be special. It is numerically impossible. All the best students no longer go to Harvard. Yale, Princeton and Stanford are considered actual peer institutions by almost everyone who knows anything. That wasn't so until just a few years ago. With the inevitable boom in population, HYPS is going to extend to all the Ivies, Stanford, MIT, Cal Tech, Duke, Williams Amherst or something--all on the same scale.</p>
<p>Wow, this man and I are psychic twins or something. Both of us have been Harvard alumni interviewers, both of us have made similarly-sized donations over the years, and both of us have junior HS twins :eek: who will not be going to Harvard. Great article, MotherofTwo, I missed it in my paper!</p>
<p>Dolcevalse:</p>
<p>Its doing really well on 1 or 2 EC's that show a real commitment not scattering yourself over a "lot of EC's" that counts.</p>
<p>Ok, so this guy is telling us about all the very qualified kids who DIDN'T get in, exactly WHO did get in??! In the quest for the holy grail of higher education, DIVERSITY, the Ivies are taking less qualified URMs. Now before anyone gets their knickers twisted, let me make this clear.... I am saying less qualified, but by no means unqualified. These "suburban" kids mentioned in the article don't stand a chance... what more could they do? The fact of life now is, fair or unfair, is that when it comes to admission to the Ivies is it is unfortunate if you are fortunate.</p>
<p>It's unfortunate that anyone would think Harvard is the 'be all and end all'. To the poster who feels deflated because he might not get into his reach schools, by definition it's unlikely - that's why you consider them reaches. Develop a list of colleges where you would be happy. </p>
<p>Where is the poster Carolyn when you need her? - she could address this far more eloquently than I. The good news in the admissions bloodbath is that it forces students, parents and guidance counselors to search out alternatives and in the process they might well find a school that's a better fit. Popular opinion will necessarily lag, but as another poster pointed out, lesser known colleges will become better known as the college population increases and the top students at your local high school end up at Pomona, Vanderbilt, etc. rather than the usual suspects. And remind yourself that worrying about the name recognition of your college is a holdover from middle school thinking, and you've gone way beyond that. If it really, really bothers you that people tilt their heads in confusion when you mention your college, go out and buy the most recognizable pair of sneakers on the planet.</p>
<p>Really points up the minimal chances working class kids have to enter an Ivy League School these days.</p>
<p>Nightingales comment got me to thinking about my nephew. He was a child of a single mother in West Virginia. He was the top student in his elementary, middle and high school and scored in the high 700s on the SAT. His mom was a grocery store clerk and he and his other siblings had to deliver newspapers in order to make sure the electricity stayed on and there was food on the table. During high school, he acted and was a photographer for the school newspaper and wrestled. My husband and I pleaded and begged him to apply to HPY. But he was
.afraid. He felt he was just a country hick that would have no chance at an IVY. And he was terrified of the cost. And, I think, he was fearful of leaving West Virginia.<br>
He is in his late twenties now and thinking of being an electrician. He has worked as a janitor, a river raft guide and a clerk in a video store. My husband and I love him dearly but, whenever we see him, we are crying inside about what might have been.
So Harvard, if you are looking for bright working class/poor native kids, come on down to West Virginia and convince these kids to apply!</p>
<p>It's easy to hate on Harvard because they send so many rejections. My whole family did until my kid got in and now we all lovin' it. </p>
<p>My stoic, illiterate father cried when he heard. My mother finally scheduled her knee replacement surgery when she heard 'cause she gonna go visit that child in the fall. She has several other grands in college but Harvard got the surgery done.</p>
<p>Yorkyfan:</p>
<p>I feel so much regret on behalf of that young man!
Back in the 1990s, I met a young man who was attending Harvard. He was from Appalachia and had a friend who was attending Princeton. No one but they in their little town had apparently hear of either university. Harvard was unknown, and the folks thought Princeton referred to another little town not far away. Even then, HYP were reaching out to bright students in Appalachia. But I agree, more can be done. The young man I met graduated from Harvard and went on to pursue his dream career in the military. </p>
<p>Shiloh: What a lovely story! I hope the knee surgery goes well. She can then visit all the grandchildren, not just the one at Harvard (no playing favorites!)</p>
<p>I agree with lefthandofdog. When I learned how hard it is to get into HYP for unhooked applicants [such as my son], I found it liberating. He could pursue the activities he enjoyed, get a B on his high school transcript and still get into an excellent school with a terrific fit for him. He didn't have to be as driven as were some of his classmates or be "packaged" as some of his friends were by their parents with "Harvard only" ambitions. And it made us investigate and find a number of highly regarded good "fit" schools.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Ok, so this guy is telling us about all the very qualified kids who DIDN'T get in, exactly WHO did get in??! In the quest for the holy grail of higher education, DIVERSITY, the Ivies are taking less qualified URMs. Now before anyone gets their knickers twisted, let me make this clear.... I am saying less qualified, but by no means unqualified. These "suburban" kids mentioned in the article don't stand a chance... what more could they do? The fact of life now is, fair or unfair, is that when it comes to admission to the Ivies is it is unfortunate if you are fortunate.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I always thought and continue to think that there should be some weighted deduction on the application for academic advantages and expensive help in applying to colleges. Schools should ask how much was spent on special academic programs, SAT prep, locating and participating in EC's, outside counselors, private travel to events (math contests, etc.), etc., private school, etc. and make AI deductions accordingly. This might help balance the AA privilege conveys. The more one accomplishes without added expensive assistance, the better the candidate.</p>
<p>lefthandofdog - Carolyn would be proud of you! I thought your response was excellent (middle school thinking, indeed.)</p>
<p>I, too, thought the article was liberating....</p>
<p>
[quote]
Schools should ask how much was spent on special academic programs, SAT prep, locating and participating in EC's, outside counselors, private travel to events (math contests, etc.), etc., private school, etc. and make AI deductions accordingly.
[/quote]
Why is the cost important? Near me, in Newark, NJ, inner city kids get free academic programs, including free transportation, free private music lessons, etc. So the Newark kid who didn't have parents interested enough to sign him up for the freebies, or middle class suburban kids without access to such programs, can't compete. And families who sacrificed to focus on enrichment activities are not rewarded. There is really no fair way to evaluate what a kid had offered to him & how well he took advantage of it. Socio-economic status is not a reliable way to measure advantage.</p>