@toowonderful: I would think even the pilot who thinks that he knows how to fly is going to find himself in trouble.
Schools don’t generally hire a history major, or a physics major. You hire someone certified to teach social studies or science. These certifications are broad (which schools like- max flexibility) the specialization generally comes as your career moves along. I got my masters in history later in the process- and that is when I stopped teaching things that weren’t history (AP comparative gov is my exception- and I only do a section of that every other year)
There is also the plain and simple fact that a lot of teachers who COULD teach AP, don’t want to. It is much harder than other classes, especially in terms of grading. One of the posts on the last page mentioned incentive pay for AP teachers- that is not a thing in my district (or my state to my knowledge). I personally think the extra work is worth it b/c I am passionately interested in my subject(s) and curriculum. Not everyone in my dept agrees with me. It doesn’t make them bad people, or even bad teachers. But if someone doesn’t WANT to commit to AP, they shouldn’t be doing it, b/c odds are they won’t do it well.
Be careful of counting semesters saved before the student chooses a college next April and chooses a major. Depending on the student’s major, some of the AP credit may not be usable as subject credit for major or general education requirements, and the student’s major may have a prerequisite sequence that takes a minimum number of semesters to complete, regardless of the amount of credit brought in (unless the student carefully chose AP tests and college courses in high school to cover some of that sequence).
60 (39+21) credits is theoretically halfway done with a bachelor’s degree in terms of credits, but a typical advanced high school graduate with that many credits is less likely to have taken a coherent set of courses to be ready to declare a major and take junior/senior level courses than a college student who has been taking courses to be ready for junior/senior level courses in his/her major by the time s/he has completed 60 credits. Saving a semester or year probably is not that hard, but saving three or four semesters may be significantly harder.
Assuming that a teacher is well prepared to teach the AP course, what makes teaching an AP course significantly more difficult than teaching a regular level course? Seems that the AP course is likely to have more committed students who are easier to teach.
Why community colleges have to hire instructors with Master/PhD degrees to teach?
@TheGFG Our best teachers have traditionally been women, and until the 1970s teaching was the only profession open to most of them. The “best” teachers of ages past are now law partners, corporate executives, etc. Our nation never targeted our best and brightest for the teaching profession. We denied women jobs and forced them to serve as teachers, often at fairly low pay. They tended to do a very good job of it.
@ucbalumnus I am aware that some of my son’s credits may not transfer, although many of the AP courses are in required courses, not electives. I don’t think he will lose too many hours, but I certainly don’t mind him taking more hours than he really needs to graduate if there are courses which interest him or that he thinks he needs. Whether it comes out to 40 or 60 hours, the savings are still pretty large.
For teaching college frosh/soph level academic courses, universities mainly use people with PhDs (faculty) and people in progress to PhDs (TAs). So a community college may want to have instructors with similar levels of education to teach those courses. Given that the production of PhD graduates in most subjects is far greater than the number who can be employed by universities and industry, community colleges may not have too much trouble finding instructors with advanced degrees in most subjects.
I know a few HS teachers who don’t enjoy teaching APs because you can get chained to an inflexible external curriculum. A teacher may prefer to teach with a different rhythm, sequence, or approach, such as longer units, field trips, different course material, individualized or group work, etc. Many AP curricula (in various subjects) just “cover material” as quickly as possible, with no time for complementary material or projects. I know that some APs have been reformed during the last few years to make them less memorization-driven, but some teachers may prefer to teach more flexibly and creatively.
If a student brings too many college credits, some schools will make him apply as a transfer. Does that apply to AP’s too? My kids’ colleges accepted very few except for placement purposes.
I can see, in some schools, where teachers would prefer Honors over AP courses. It’s the same reason why some parents and students opt out the rat race. The students may be committed to high grades, but not necessarily learning. Worse, the parents may be more committed. Sure you want involved parents but you don’t want to deal with over-involved parents. I’ve seen parents email their kids’ AP teachers at least once a week on a regular basis. Then there are the students and parents (especially the parents) who flip out over a 90 and want to see how their snowflake can get extra credit to bring up the A- to an A.
Finally, I have a feeling teaching an AP class may not be so interesting to creative teachers. They may not be able to delve too much into the material or follow their students’ curiosity. Instead, they have to follow a specific curriculum. Isn’t that why some private schools ditched AP classes?
Reading this thread makes me happy with our school. We know several teachers and ex-teachers personally, and they uniformly tell us they look forward to teaching AP or honors classes.
Not usually. You’ll see schools sometimes do it for HS grads that have earned an AA degree via dual enrollment. Otherwise you’ll find that many of your AP credits don’t count toward your degree (as UCB explained). My daughter was a “Junior” before she completed her first semester at school. However, it’s still going to take her the normal 4 years to graduate with an engineering degree.
At some schools, having advanced standing from AP credits will give a student priority in registration, useful for getting into popular classes or classes with popular professors.
@TheGFG has really lost me now that it becomes apparent her daughter got into Stanford despite the unimaginable obstacles created by the Asian majority in her high school, and has done well. You do know that competition is good for building both motivation and skills, right ? There are school districts where the top 10% of the class is special, and the top 10% goes to very competitive schools or receives massive scholarships at flagships and other top 100 schools.
Sure my daughter could have been valedictorian in a disadvantaged high school, but … she has done just fine … and did take 12 AP tests … and has lots of college credits towards a minor or can work towards her masters in 5 years. Tragic … no … and keeping up with the Jones has built up good study habits so she can compete at a top school … and good study habits -> good work habits and good knowledge of your field -> likely success at work.
I don’t think AP classes are beyond the capabilities of top students … and don’t really think you need more than say 4 or 5 to get into a competitive program. There are some kids that can take 12 or more and they probably should have the opportunity.
Also tiny violin about classmates taking classes at Princeton in HS. Beats having kids in juvie … no ?
I am not sure this isn’t heaven for really bright kids and pretty bucolic if you place your kid (or better yet, they place themselves) right where they belong.
@SlackerMomMD : “Finally, I have a feeling teaching an AP class may not be so interesting to creative teachers. They may not be able to delve too much into the material or follow their students’ curiosity. Instead, they have to follow a specific curriculum. Isn’t that why some private schools ditched AP classes?”
Yes, yes and yes.
Even placement has tangible value, by allowing students to explore other interests or more advanced topics at the same price as others who are just trudging through prerequisites. Students who have taken advanced classes or say business or economics classes may be able to sell this to employers, or they can do research as undergrads for credit, or they can start course work towards their masters (5 years to a masters in say engineering is difficult for ordinary mortals).
Or you can retake some of the courses and get easy As so you can actually enjoy your freshman year and all the school offers …
Most schools do give credit … most school will make it difficult to graduate in less than 3 or even 4 years … especially in STEM very packed programs like engineering. But this is a lot better than the national average of 4.5 years for engineering programs.
For a liberal arts major, lots of history and social studies and english and economics credits could really move you into much more interesting classes.
There are also minors, which while not directly correlated to salary, that could make you more interesting like business. Or minors, like music or art or theater … that would make some students much more happy than more freshman intro classes.
And for many kids, the option to just sit around in HS to avoid harder AP classes … it’s just not attractive to them at ALL.
Why are your kids going to college or even high school ? Is it just for the paper and the path to the next level or is it to grow in skills and knowledge and understanding of the world ?
AP classes are supposed to be enriching … as are advanced college classes like a junior level English class or maybe linear algebra or number theory or quantum mechanics.
At a top school, Physics 1 for engineers is taught with calculus at least as a co-requisite, but really calculus is the basic of physics (Newton !) … so getting to BC is very valuable if you are going on to many STEM degrees.
@PickOne1: Seriously, you have chosen to leave the conversation if you would posit AP classes as a worthwhile alternative to juvenile hall.
I meant having some of your brilliant classmates taking AP classes or going to Princeton
vs. having some of your classmates out doing drugs, breaking laws … etc.
Pretty obvious these two groups would have many differences and are in different school districts, although there are always a few kids born into privilege that do go wrong in HS…
Very few people accidentally move into a top school district … and living there is not detrimental to all but a tiny handful of students (and if so, I would think someone could provide tutoring or Org Chem for Dummies book to catch them up).
Lots of people are born into terrible school districts where getting an education is a daily issue.
I think the idea that there is an easy way to get into Stanford by finding a special school district that won’t work your child too hard and not having highly skilled competitors is somewhat flawed. Do you realize how hard it is to become a successful Stanford student if you are not born to a family who can send you to a good high school (middle school, elementary school) ?
I am likely leaving …
PS - as a ChemE, I know there is no orgo required for gen chem, which is an easy class anyway, but was always a kind of difficult AP test. Take it in college, skip the AP class … take CoGoPo instead, it’s pretty creative.
Re #288
Typically, credits from high school based tests like AP, and college credits earned before high school graduation, do not disqualify one from applying as a frosh.
It is typically college enrollment or credits after high school graduation that can force one into the transfer path.
This is kinda off-topic, but…
Re: #297 -
I don’t see what doing drugs and breaking laws has to do with the level of high school courses one takes.
I’ve known of a few college students that were hooked on heroin and coke… and they started in high school while taking AP classes.
Maybe AP classes are a gateway to… ?
See how silly it is when you generalize about how only “dumb” students do drugs and/or get into trouble? Please.
Ok, I’m done now.
Back to topic…