Rejection and Accepted

Graduate School
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<p>Hi I'm from the Uk. I have spent a large amount of time over the past 3 years, applying to different universities across the US but to no avail. I was rejected by almost a dozen different institutions. My aim was simple do a PhD/Masters in Chemistry and then eventually become a lecturer. This would involve the two things I liked research and teaching. </p>

<p>I went to Anglia Ruskin University in the UK. In which I undertook a degree in Forensic Science and received a 1st class hons (which is roughly equivalent to a GPA of 3.7 to 4.0). Over the past two years I have gained some experience of industrial chemistry as well as teaching though competitive gaming coaching.</p>

<p>The universities I applied to were a wide range from University of San Fransico to Caltech. However the responses were the same : Rejection. </p>

<p>This is in stark contrast to how I have been recieved in the Uk, after only applying on Wednesday and attending an interview today. I have been accepted at the University of Cambridge. </p>

<p>How can some universities in the states, to which are widely regarded as easy to get in to schools (UCR being a great example) reject me and the number 1 university in the world then turn around and accept me ? It makes a mockery of the whole system.</p>

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<p>No it doesn’t. You internationals are just crazy (kidding…). Like how do you all get >700 on the Verbal section of the GRE? :wink: </p>

<p>Realize that international competition for state schools is extremely tough, simply because these schools don’t have the grant money to support international students. Usually greater than 60% of applicants are international, yet 80% of the interviews/offers go to domestic students. What does that say? You’re experience was pretty typical.</p>

<p>There’s definitely a bias towards US students. 1. The colleges we come from are more recognizable. 2. There are like a gazillion colleges in the world. 3. It’s hard for adcoms to judge your true english skills (I know you’re from UK, this does not apply to you). 4. It’s hard for adcoms to judge how much an international student will be worth to their institution. 5. There is just a general consensus that an American university education is more rigorous and held to higher standards. </p>

<p>God bless the USA. LOL.</p>

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<p>I disagree with denizen. Some STEM fields have far more graduate foreign students than domestic students. Also, 800s on the GRE aren’t difficult to achieve for many of those students. It is more likely that steelbacks’ rejections were due to inadequate research experience and/or letters of recommendation, the two most critical parts of an application to a STEM program. PhD programs in the U.S. have different expectations from applicants than PhD programs in the UK, and it sounds like steelbacks’ application materials were simply more geared to the expectations of non-U.S. schools.</p>

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<p>On average GRE scores and GPAs are higher for international applicants, at least according to the dozen of program coordinators I’ve contacted.</p>

<p>That’s besides the point though. For the OP specifically, I think he underestimated the process. “My aim was simple do a PhD/Masters in Chemistry and then eventually become a lecturer.”</p>

<p>Ohh yeahhhh. “Simple,” right? Come on bru, that’s what everyone wants.</p>

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<p>No UC school is “easy to get in to” by any standard, and graduate admissions are a completely different animal. Acceptance rates of 5% or less are the norm.</p>

<p>Also, USF doesn’t have a Ph.D program in chemistry. Are you referring to UCSF? Because “UCSF to Caltech” is not a really wide range of schools at all - those are two highly selective and competitive programs.</p>

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<p>"UCSF is a health sciences campus and offers graduate degrees in the biological, biomedical, pharmaceutical, nursing, social and behavioral sciences. UCSF graduate students may conduct research in basic, clinical, social, and behavioral sciences. Their work ultimately will help to ensure the health of human beings, shape health care systems, and influence public education about the prevention of disease. "</p>

<p>It only offers a PHD program in Chemistry and Chemical Biology, which does not match up with your UG Industrial Chemisty research experience. So maybe that is why they rejected you. In addition, USCF ,and CalTech are 2 of the hardest graduate schools in the US to get into. </p>

<p>"UCSF research-doctorate programs rank among the nation’s best according to a survey released by the National Research Council (NRC) in September 2010.</p>

<p>The survey, the first of its kind since 1995, did not assign a single rank to any program, but intentionally placed the programs within a range in their fields, such as first to third. Based on the NRC analysis, 10 of the 12 UCSF programs fell within a range that included the top six programs in their fields, with three of those including the No. 1 rank.</p>

<p>The top-ranked UCSF programs were nursing, biochemistry & molecular biology, and bioengineering. The range for three other programs included second place: neuroscience, biophysics and biomedical sciences. The range for cell biology started at No. 3.</p>

<p>The other five programs in which UCSF was scored – medical anthropology, chemistry & chemical biology, sociology, genetics, and oral & craniofacial sciences – also ranked among the nation’s best." </p>

<p>“How can some universities in the states, to which are “widely regarded” as easy to get in to schools reject me?”
Your impression of how hard it is to gain acceptance into top US graduate programs is wildly incorrect. I don’t know where you got that impression. Rejoice at your acceptance in the UK.</p>

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<p>dntw8up, I believe you are spot on.</p>

<p>American universities place the highest premium on research experience for acceptance. Many of the international schools put the highest premium on GPA and test scores.</p>

<p>That’s what it boils down to…</p>

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<p>from what i hear, internationals get high gres because they have a lot more to gain by memorizing the barrons wordlist and getting a high gre for a shot at vastly VASTLY improving their standard of living.</p>

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<p>I have a much more skeptical view. I think internationally there’s a lot of scandal and cheating going on. Proctors probably let stuff slide due to bribery, family favors, even blackmail etc etc. Government may even have something to do with it. Student performs well on exam = comes to America to go to a good university = gets in high places and makes a lot of money = comes back to home country to share secrets and/or wealth. I totally wouldn’t be surprised if this happened in countries like China or India.</p>

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<p>its true, if you have more to gain, then you have more incentive to cheat. however, if you lurk urch.com forums or grad cafe you will read about many internationals who post stuff about how to do well on verbal (by memorizing) despite language barrier. the greater part of the score discrepancies boil down to greater effort due to greater incentives. besides, i’ve tried doing the GRE verbal WITH a dictionary and still get questions wrong T_T.</p>

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<p>steelbacks, what US unis/programs have you been applying to? I myself have been rejected by all US programs I applied to but accepted at both Oxford & Cambridge among others in Europe. I hear this is quite common from many friends who applied to graduate schools. The standard of admission for the US for international students is much higher than in Europe for comparatively ranked because most people from Asia want to go to the US to study…</p>

<p>I am obviously not biased as I’m going to Oxford next year…</p>

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<p>Denizen : " I have a much more skeptical view. I think internationally there’s a lot of scandal and cheating going on. Proctors probably let stuff slide due to bribery, family favors, even blackmail etc etc. Government may even have something to do with it. Student performs well on exam = comes to America to go to a good university = gets in high places and makes a lot of money = comes back to home country to share secrets and/or wealth. I totally wouldn’t be surprised if this happened in countries like China or India." </p>

<p>Please don’t make unfounded generalizations.</p>

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<p>US Chem PhD programs are looking for researchers not lecturers.</p>

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<p>In 2002, there was a huge international cheating scandal uncovered abroad:</p>

<p>[GRE</a> cheating revealed abroad](<a href=“http://www.studlife.com/archives/News/2002/09/13/GREcheatingrevealedabroad/]GRE”>GRE cheating revealed abroad - Student Life Archives)</p>

<p>Although ETS subsequently took measures to ensure the integrity of the exam, many programs started discounting high GRE scores from internationals and instead focused on other, more telling aspects of applications.</p>

<p>And just this past July, Reuters posted this:</p>

<p>[Gaming</a> the GRE test in China, with a little online help | Reuters](<a href=“http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/07/27/us-china-testing-cheating-idUSTRE76Q19R20110727]Gaming”>http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/07/27/us-china-testing-cheating-idUSTRE76Q19R20110727)</p>

<p>This does not mean, of course, that all test-takers in those countries cheated, only that high scores lose their value as metrics.</p>

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<p>An European PhD is not equal to a US PhD. The former is a less prestigious degree focused on learning while the latter is a more prestigious degree focused on research. The European PhD is more similar to a US Master’s degree. There is no real counterpart to the US PhD in Europe, which is why many European students earn their European PhDs then reapply to US PhD programs after.</p>

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<p>

The opposite is closer to the truth, actually. A European PhD is awarded solely for research, while a US PhD requires coursework and exams as well. </p>

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Never heard of this. Can you back it up?</p>

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<p>@post</p>

<p>I have worked in roughly two research institutes in the UK and another European country (Chemistry incidentally) with people with PhDs from nearly every European country possible. Also saw some of the PhD students in action and I can compare them quite confidently with US PhDs that I worked with. I also have a lot of friends in UK phds like Cambridge et al. Major things I noticed:</p>

<p>1) UK PhDs are in general much easier to get than US ones. The mantra is: Regardless of the quality of your work you will graduate in 3-4 years. </p>

<p>2) The workload in the UK is much much easier too, they work from 9-5pm and then they leave and go home. They also have like 1 hours of lunch and 2 hours of facebook time inbtw each day. The stress of a UK PhD is way way less than that of a US Phd. No qualifiers, no courses, no teaching just 9-6 research and they never work during the weekends. That is a no no. the 80 hours week you have in the US is basically nonexistent. The lab I worked in shut down at 6pm and all the PhD students have to be out.</p>

<p>3) PhD programs in the US are crazy/intense relative to those in other countries. Thank whatever god you worship that you got into Cambridge. You are getting a PhD for less stress trust me. No one is gonna turn their nose towards a Cambridge Phd and you would not be aged significantly. Most PhD chemist at top schools work 60-80 hours a week- that’s Investment banking work hours for crappy pay.</p>

<p>4) All European PhDs are not the same. From experience, some continental European PhDs (say Germany) are just as good as the top US ones (regardless of world rankings) and they work the same crazy hours. The UK PhD in say chemistry work less hours though and I would consider less rigorous. What confuses me is how relaxed most of the labs i worked in the UK are relative to American ones while being able to publish papers in top journals.</p>

<p>However this could be due to the fact that the US and the UK houses most of the major research journals gives their institutions a lot of prestige in the research world.</p>

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<p>They tend to do that because of the insularity of American academia, which makes it difficult to apply for academic positions without a US Phd, so immediately they get into the US they can start applying for post-docs. I know quite a couple of people who did this but most were trying to just get into the united states not really to get a new PhD.</p>

<p>Also most people would do anything to live in the US- personally don’t know why- but that’s kind of how it is.</p>

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<p>Somethings to consider:</p>

<p>1) Anglia Ruskin is not really a good university in the UK sorry to be blunt but if you applied to top programs in chemistry you would have to attend the top school in your country and be one of teh top as an international student.</p>

<p>2) You did not do an undergraduate in chemistry or any of the traditional fields of chemistry: Inorganic, organic, biochemistry e.t.c. You did forensic science. You probably dont meet the general requirements for a chemistry program. </p>

<p>3) You might have applied to a particular supervisor at Cambridge who required someone with your experience (I am not sure). In the US you apply to a department where your skills and interest must typically match those of 2-3 advisers and forensic science well …</p>

<p>4) UCSF (if you did apply there) is a very very top program for chemistry/chemical biology. You should be honored to get rejected there.</p>

<p>5) Research experience- how much do you have in **chemistry **? and letters of recommendation- from my experience with UK professors, they usually tell you to write the letter of recommendation yourself, they proofread it and then they sign off on it. Sometimes it ends up being very generic.</p>

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<p>You went to a foreign university that typically ranks around #100 (within the UK not the world). You got a degree in something only tangentially related to chemistry. You don’t seem to have substantial research experience. In this U.S., this is a formula for getting summarily rejected, especially due to the lack of research.</p>

<p>There has to be confluence of high numbers (GPA/GRE), research experience <em>that results in letters</em>, and a well-matched advisor who is taking students that year. Top students from top American programs regularly get rejected by schools like Caltech and UCSF. Your Cambridge acceptance doesn’t invalidate your American rejections – a UK PhD isn’t the same as an American PhD as others have pointed out and UCR isn’t “widely regarded as easy to get into”.</p>