<p>It would have been nice to have included a proposed solution in the article. Also include the financial impact to Medicare if a change occurred. From a white paper I read years ago, on average Medicare spends $100,000 per year per resident for training. Increasing residents’ pay would have to impact that number. Good article otherwise.</p>
<p>My DD thinks the interviews should change to a conference format, divide up the country into sections and all meet up there in October, one area per week, everyone travels allowing all applicants to schools in that region to interview that week. Then allow the students to visit all their interview spots on their own schedule, making their own plans,</p>
<p>My DD spent way more than she should have due to conflicts, then need to return to one urban area, by plane, four different times, etc!</p>
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<p>It sounds rather bad for osteopaths. This is the only way they get residency right?</p>
<p>From what a DO resident told me, too many new osteopathic medical schools were opened without sufficient residency positions to match. Plus the new schools allowed for a pool of lower qualified students to be admitted to medical school. As a result, many students graduated without enough residency opportunities. I don’t know if this is in fact true, but I can’t imagine a more catastrophic scenario for those students who didn’t match. That is an enormous amount of students scrambling.</p>
<p>I have been very impressed with the DO residents I work with. These residents are very professional, they do not seem as stressed as the typical MD residents I remembered, and they are impressively skilled early on (PGY1-2). I do agree, the system needs to change but it will take a big fight. The medical schools have too much to lose.</p>
<p>From what I have read, if you are going DO, it is recommended to attend a school that has been around for a long time, the new ones have not had time to develop a reputation and some are quite expensive. I may be wrong but I believe a DO can apply for EITHER the DO or MD match, but not both.</p>
<p>It appears that if you are a US or Canadian who does med school abroad, whether that be Caribbean or UK, you will have a tougher time matching and are likely to have to do a less competitive residency, both in terms of choosing family med or psych and also in terms of the program chosen. It appears that AMGs are not excited to rank a program full of IMGs.</p>
<p>So there is a separate DO match program available and those applying to MD program were the ones where 1 out 5 did not get matched or do I have that wrong?</p>
<p>That is correct, TX, though they are merging the two in the next few years, not sure how that will work,</p>
<p>somemom, DO students can actually apply to either DO or MD or BOTH residencies (at least up to and including this most recent match–unsure what it means for the future). the potential catch is that the DO match is in like, january or something, and if a student matches DO then they have to withdraw from MD. this can create a sticky situation depending on the reason for applying to both programs–i know someone who applied to gen surg in both but really preferred MD, so didn’t rank any DO programs (essentially wasting all those DO interviews!)/didn’t end up participating in DO match, and then didn’t match MD, and had to scramble into a different specialty. i have another friend who is applying to a competitive specialty DO and applying to a not competitive specialty MD as a backup plan (because she’s not really interested in the not competitive specialty’s DO programs). </p>
<p>i’m not really sure how transitional or prelim years factor into all of this, or if you can mix/match MD and DO prelim or transitional years with categorical programs.</p>
<p>texas, as i understand the stats, the 22% represents DO students participating in MD match who did not match. i’m not sure if the students who filled out rank lists for both DO programs and MD programs are included, and if they are included, i’m unsure how it factors into the numbers if they match DO and thus forfeit their MD spot.</p>
<p>Research at a med school:
We recently learned from DS who had almost finished his 3rd year rotation that he planned to have a research for TWO years starting this fall.</p>
<p>I am aware that many do 1-year research at his school. This is the first time I heard from him that some students would do 2 years - the second of these two years is also the senior year.</p>
<p>Do students at other med school do research for such a long time? I have the impression from him in the past that some students (not MD/PhD ones) actually never stop doing research in any years at med school. It may be the case that he feels he is “behind” and he needs to somehow “catch up with” his peer students.</p>
<p>He was also talking about joining some interest group other than IM interest group which he has always been a part of - likely along the line of padding his resume. But I think he still does not know for sure what specialty he is interested in today.</p>
<p>Also, I heard that before graduation, every student after MS3 needs to “volunteer” in the teaching hospital for 36 days. He planned to complete it during his first research year. Hopefully, his PI would not mind letting him go off to complete this requirement in his first research year. But it is usually the case that the “better”/“higher status” the research group is, it would suck up more of the student’s energy and time because this is how a research group at a research med school gets to where it is at in the first place.</p>
<p>Another interesting point he brought up was that some specialist brings more money for the hospitals than other specialists. He said some surgeon who helped remove some bad or not-needed-anymore organs from female patients tend to earn a lot of money for the hospital even though the procedure is more routine and less risky. But he said this is not done by a general surgeon. I do not understand much about this “specialty” he was talking about.</p>
<p>I have heard about “gap” year only from here. D. mentioned that she does not know anybody around her who is having “gap” year. She is not planning on it either. D’s school has 4 months (well, in D’s case it was 4 months, do not know about others), Research rotation. Some are doing Research in a summer after first year, the only summer that they have off. However, D. had decided to spend good portion of it on the trip abroad to work in free clinics in poor region of the South America and she did not have sufficient period to engage in additional Research after that. So, while some have Research Rotation + Research in a summer after first year, some others have only Research Rotation (my D. is in this group). She had written manuscript and pursuing publication and going to conference with her poster.<br>
There is NO way that D. would be doing Research concurrent with pre-clinicals or clinicals. How you can do research when you are in rotation for 12+ hours every day and sometime for few weeks without break at all? Maybe some do not require sleep and have labs or clinics (the places where they actually do research) open at night. This is not the case at D’s school.
I am not aware of any “interest group” either. Maybe D. never mentioned, maybe I did not pay attention.<br>
D. will NOT have 30 days after her 3rd year to ““volunteer” in the teaching hospital for 36 days.”. Her schedule is already very much packed and she will be going to interviews (she hopes that she will be invited) actually DURING one of her rotations. she is applying in September and in a process of asking for LORs (people who have affered to her before). They also have several meetings with their deans to go over Personal Stattement and in general in regard to application.<br>
Very interesting. It looks like different Medical Schools are more different from each other than we originally thought. That is why it is extremely important to talk (and follow advice) at your specific school and not so much here, I guess. </p>
<p>@mcat2 Is this a US medical school? I have never heard of clerkship level students being expected to “volunteer” in the hospital. Like emptying bedpans or some sort of educational experience? Is this some sort of introduction to the wards or a longitudinal clerkship experience during the research year? If he is doing 2 years of research, but the second year is actually his “4th” year of medical school, then he is just choosing to use his elective time for more research. If he has a great project that needs the time to complete, that is super. But it will not help his residency match to simply do more time in the lab.</p>
<p>@MiamiDAP Adding a research year between MS2/3 or MS3/4 is becoming increasingly common at top tier medical schools, especially those without research semester/trimester/blocks. A student at a less well regarded medical school, who wants to match in a highly competitive specialty, might get a decent boost by taking a research year. But generally speaking, they are the exception rather than the rule. </p>
<p>My D will be taking a research year between years 3 and 4 to allow her significant other to catch up year wise with her so they can do couples match. Although research isn’t really her thing, she does say that hopefully it will enhance her resume. </p>
<p>“Adding a research year between MS2/3 or MS3/4 is becoming increasingly common at top tier medical schools, especially those without research semester/trimester/blocks. A student at a less well regarded medical school, who wants to match in a highly competitive specialty, might get a decent boost by taking a research year. But generally speaking, they are the exception rather than the rule.” - It looks like that at D’s school, research year is an exception, but it could be that it is an exception around my D., she is not talking to everybody in her class. </p>
<p>When I interview potential residents, maybe one in 10 has done research year or MD/PhD. Of students at the top tier medical school where I teach, it may be closer to 1 in 5 (counting those that get MPH’s). So even though I characterized it as “increasingly common” it is still very much the exception.</p>
<p>^in connection to you menionning MD/PhD, D. was told that in general they are considered ahead of regular MDs, even i in cases of lower slcores. Is that correct? Is it part of the algorithm?</p>
<p>It would appear that most of the student in DD’s class who expanded did it due to issues that caused them to want to expand in order to present a stronger residency app or for personal life reasons- pregnancy, synchronizing schedules with SO, etc. Anecdotally she knew people who needed to get more honors rotations, people who had a serious illness, etc. DD did consider expanding when she was MS3 as it would have allowed her to take more rotations in the couple of fields she was considering as she did not like having to be locked into choosing the rest of her life so quickly, but she was strongly advised against it.
It seems like a school based trend, certainly some extremely strong students I know of are taking research years in their school where it is the norm.</p>
<p>There isn’t much of an algorithm for residency applicants. Depending on the specialty, MD/PhD can be a plus or a minus. Some clinically oriented folks have a bias against them - most tend to end up in academia rather than primary care. However, it the applicant is pursuing an academic/research medicine career - it is a significant positive. </p>
<p>High USMLE scores are the most important thing. A strong Deans Letter is the next most important. MD/PhD, research productivity, LOR are under that. If the applicant is invited to interview, Interview score becomes about 50% of the weight in ranking. </p>
<p>My knowledge is limited to the committees I’ve been on, but MD/PhD’s get considered a little differently, usually judged (more stringently than regular MD candidates) for their potential academic productivity and with an eye to weed out “weird ones” in the interview process. </p>
<p>Firstly, thanks for all the inputs.</p>
<p>DS is at a US med school, which I heard is slightly more research oriented than most other med schools, likely due to its “research year recommended” and “thesis required” policies.</p>
<p>When I “researched” for it a few years ago, about 65% (at least more than a half every year) of the students at his school did the extra research year.</p>
<p>The 36 “volunteer” days are actually required for every student at his school. And the location is always at their own teaching hospital. I imagine it is just the terminology issue. Maybe so many students there go off to do research or other endeavors and the med school has some concerns that the students may become “rusted” in their clinical skills. Therefore, the school requires them to come back to the clinical settings occasionally, in their MS3 year environment to retain their clinical knowledge/skills in MS3 (and maybe also to keep up the clinical knowledge/skills for STEP-2 CK and CS?) I heard from somewhere before that if students did too much research stuff for too long, they could forget too much about clinical stuff.</p>
<p>I thought most MS4 students (after the research “gap” year between MS3 and MS4) will be extremely busy in applying and (hopefully) interviewing. It is beyond my understanding how DS can possibly join one of the demanding research groups (which actually help the school to “earn” school’s research rank) and work full time like those PhD candidates or postdocs do.</p>
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I knew of a student who had tried to match into derm but did not match.</p>
<p>What other specialty is like derm in terms of its difficulty to match into? I heard of plastic surgery and ortho. Any others? Radiology-Onc and maybe Gastro (?)</p>
<p>I am somewhat confused about " if students did too much research stuff for too long, they could forget too much about clinical stuff." - Aren’t “core rotations” required everywhere? My D. is still doing her last one, she is still NOT done with her 3rd year. While doing these “core rotations” in MS3, there is no way the students could have been engaged in the Research, except (at D’s school), there is a Research rotation (which is part of the “core rotations”). It is very confusing to hear that at other Med. schools students could be involved a lot in Research in 3rd year, again, shows the huge difference in Medical Schools. Again, at D’s school, they have only one summer off - after the first year. In 4th year, most are in elective rotations and in AI. The spots are going so quickly, D. got the last spot in her elective rotation (before the registration was oficially opened!!!). That was a very close call. She will not have any type of break for any additional research in her 4th year either. And she is NOT even doing “away” rotation, which she had considered for awhile, but realized that there is no period in her schedule that she can fit it in.<br>
All this discussion about a lot of research is very very confusing to me. I do not understand the “when” part.<br>
MCAT2, the girl that you mentioned that did not match to derm. “If she in fact went to only 3 derm interviews, that’s definitely what did her in.
I knew of a student who had tried to match into derm but did not match.”
- I have mentioned her awhile ago. She was ranked #1 in her class at our local Medical school (NOT D’s school). The story was so shocking that I heard it from 2 unrelated sources.
Frankly, as hard as other matches might be, there is no other specialty out there that applicants would apply to every single program in a country (like many derm. applicants do). As far as I know, applying to all 110 programs in nothing unusual, applying to at least 60 is considered to be a bare minimum.
"most MS4 students …extremely busy in applying and (hopefully) interviewing. " - well, D. will be doing all of these, while in rotations. She will not have a break for applying, interviewing (we hope that she will be invited)…and she will (hopefully) have 2 sets of interviews - additional set for Transitional/Prelim year. </p>