@WayOutWestMom any relations to Eisenstein in NYC?
Einstein Healthcare Network in Philadelphia is not affiliated with the Einstein College of Medicine in NYC.
@WayOutWestMom Is applying for Rotations during M3 year and applying for Residency programs during M4 year similar to applying to medical schools in that the med studentās undergraduate and medical school transcripts and MCAT score, and letters of recommendation all are required to be submitted? And are interviews required for rotations and residency programs? Just trying to understand the process for whatās ahead.
Thanks in advance.
Iām not @WayOutWestMom who Iām sure will give the correct details.
- For elective rotations, your Med school student applies and hopes to be accepted.
- For residency, the tests submitted are the STEP scores as many as completed. I believe my kidās medical school ātranscriptsā was sent also, and that probably included her MCAT scores. But really, the residency programs want to see what you accomplished during medical school. LOR, personal statement, resume are included as well. My kid also needed a head shot.
I donāt think my kidās undergrad information was used at all for rotations or residency applications. That was old news by the time she was applying for elective rotations and residency.
Your Med school student should have someone at the school giving them info. My kid also had a mentor and a student a year ahead of her to help with the process.
I also think the groups that process these applications have a list of required submissions.
I assume that by āapplying for rotationsā, you mean applying for away rotations. Student have to complete all home MS3 rotations first before they can apply for aways.
Aways do not require sending undergrad or med school school transcripts. Programs typically do required USMLE step 1/COMLEX level 1 scores. (Popular programs and competitive specialties use them to screen applicants.) Some programs require Step 2CK/ Level 2CE scores. The student will write a PS and supply some academic information about themselves. The studentās med school has to certify that the student is in good academic standing. (And the school also has to certify that the student has at least $1M in malpractice coverage.)
All programs require LORs from a clinical preceptor who has taught the student in the same specialty as part of the VSAS application. IOW, students applying for a peds away need a LOR from a peds preceptor.
For those applying in a specialties that typically donāt have a MS3 rotation, the student will need LORs from a clinically related specialty. (Ortho, uro, ophthalmology, ENT, interventional radiology, neurosurgery need at least a general surgery letter. Non-surgical specialties need a IM LOR at the minimum.)
If at all possible, a student should schedule & complete a home sub-I rotation in their desired specialty first before applying for an away.
There are no interviews for aways. Either youāre accepted or youāre not.
Residency is a more complicated application process.
The student needs to provide official med school transcripts, official USMLE/COMLEX test scores, a personal statement that explains āwhy specialty X?ā, at least 2-3 LORs from preceptors in the specialty being applied for (some specialties have very specific LOR requirement and formats), a MSPE ( Medical School Professional Evaluationāaka āDeanās Letterā), a complete CV (research, publications, ECs, community service, honors, awards, etc).
After the residency application is submitted, the student may be invited to interview. Interviews are in-person and typically require a great deal of travelāthough Covid concerns this year have moved all interviews on-line this cycle.
Programs typically interview as many as 5-10x more applicants than there are available slots.
For example, Ob/Gyn residencies are all small programs with 4-8 students per class. They may interview 60-120 applicants for these 4-8 positions. Ditto for all surgical subspecialties.
Student applying to PGY2 specialties (specialty training only begins during the second year of residency)āradiology, anesthesia, derm, neuro, PM&R, radiation oncology-- need to apply to programs in BOTH their specialty of choice AND a separate preliminary/transitional year. So they need to apply to many more programs and completed more interviews than those who are only applying to categorical programs.
@thumper1 has it right.
No one cares about undergrad at all. Students have to list the name of college(s) they graduated from, degree(s) earned and the date(s) of graduation. But thatās about it.
Students apply for aways through VSAS. For residency, students apply though ERAS.
Thanks very much @thumper1 and @WayOutWestMom From what you say it seems extremely difficult to secure a residency position since it appears there are many more applicants than positions available whether for āspecialty programsā or ācategoricalā programsā (Iām not sure what programs are considered categorical or how that term differs from specialtyāIāll have to learn the lingo). So approximately how many residency programs does a typical med school applicant have to apply for in order to be reasonably assured they will be able to secure a Residency position somewhere ? Is it like med schools where applicants typically apply to 20 medical schools during application cycle?
@trackmbe3 the number of residency applications suggested varies wildly by specialty. As noted by @WayOutWestMom , OB-GYN residencies have 4-6 or so residents in each entering year. emergency medicine residencies have a dozen or more.
I can give you a sample of one. My kid. ED residency applicant, she applied to 80 programs, which was way too many. Her mentor recommended 50. She was applying as. D.O. And applied to quite the variety of programsā¦academic, academic affiliate, and community hospitals. She ended up getting invited to over 30 interviews and went to 14, ranking all of them. She matched to her top choice. She did have some reachy programs in the mix, and interviewed at two of them. But the key wasā¦she was very realistic about her resume and where she might have better success.
If a medical student has very strong step scores and the application is generally strong, perhaps less applications are needed. In addition, there are some specialties where 20 applications for some students would be plenty.
ETAā¦is your student currently in medical school? If so, there should be an advisor to help the students navigate this process.
@trackmbe3 I only have one son to glean off of for experience, so take it for what it is worth, but his advisor told him how many programs he should apply to (15) and they discussed what good options would be for his scores, recommendations, and similar. My guy added 5 or 6 to the number anyway because many are applying to far more and he was a bit iffy on doing so few. Some of his friends had higher numbers suggested. It all depends upon the person, their scores, desired specialty, etc.
He also is doing neuro, so needed to add Preliminaries for a few programs (not all - some have turned it into their own 4 year program vs 1/3). The places he chose that require preliminaries and have offered interviews (so far) have both said they will guide him through that process and assist so it is only āsort ofā another interview (at least this year). He would get his first year somewhere. I think he talked of some places not doing that, but he crossed those places off his list toward the beginning to avoid the hassle.
So far it appears his advisor has been spot on. On the google sheet where it shows interview percentage (to applications sent), heās one of the highest though thatās without some places sending out their offers yet, so final tallies have yet to be seen. 75.8% of programs have sent at least some out. He has some applications waiting in the other 24.2%.
I suspect most (all?) med schools have advisors who help students do their best to find their niche. Iāll know if it worked out for him in March, I suppose, but itās eased my mind a bit seeing him get quite a few interviews. Heās now wondering if he should have added the extra 5.
I canāt imagine the cost and scheduling if he had to travel to all of his places. Heās saving a lot of money having it be virtual this year. The con is he doesnāt get to actually see the program or the setting around it at all (cities, etc).
Youāre misinterpreting what I said.
There are plenty of residency positions for all US MD and US DO grads. In fact, there are MORE residency positions than there are US medical graduates.
Per the NRMP, there were 34,266 residency positions offered (and filled) this past spring (March 2020). Thatās up 6.5% from 2019.
There were 19,326 US MD graduates in 2020 and 6,581 DO graduates. 98% of them got residency positions, either through the NRMP Match or through SOAP (Supplemental Offer and Acceptance Program).
https://www.nrmp.org/main-residency-match-data/
85% of US medical grads (MD and DO) matched to one of their top 3 ranked programs.
In OB/GYN, there were 1443 residency positions at 246 different programs for the 2020 cycle. There were 1089 MD and 221 DO applicants for those positions. There remaining positions were filled by US IMGs and FMGs. 3 positions went unfilled.
Residency programs may be competitive at the individual program level. (Like if one wants to do pediatrics at UPenn, OB/GYN at UC-SF, or surgery at Johns Hopkins.) However, if an applicant applies broadly to programs appropriate to their academics & test scores, they should be able match.
Categorical residencies are those programs where the new doctor does their entire residency at the same program.
Most specialties have categorical residencies.
The number of residencies a student needs to apply to depends on:
-
what specialty the student is applying to
ā some specialties have big residency classesā10-35 residents/year; some specialties have small classes 1-8 residents/year. For residencies with smaller class sizes, a student usually needs to apply to more programs than for specialties with bigger class sizes. -
how competitive that specialty is
-
how competitive the student is for that specialty
The NRMP offers an interactive tool to help determine a studentās competitiveness
for a specific specialty and on average how many application they need to submit to achieve a high likelihood of matching.
My kid was also told to apply to about 15 but heās doing more then 50. ??āāļø Heās applying to extremely competitive specialty with 1-3 kids accepted per year. He also said that this year because of covid kids are applying to a lot more programs. So far he has 7 interviews. But a lot of the programs for his specialty didnāt come out yet. I donāt know his full list but I think, judging by that spreadsheet recommended by @Creekland he got the interviews for all the programs that came out already. Heās a very competitive candidate with top step scores and a lot of research.
Busy day today, thatās for sure!
Iām curious about something. What is the reason for the programs to send out more invites then they have interview spots for. And then have these poor kids scramble in less then 10 mins. Isnāt this process hard enough. Especially this year.
Why do colleges accept more students than they know will enroll? Because there is likelihood that not everyone will accept your interview invite.
Addingā¦some programs donāt do this. They only send invites enough to fill slotsā¦and then send additional ones if they have spaces.
Sample of oneā¦my doctor kid accepted less than half of the interview invites she received. Why? Because she could only go to so many. Her list included a huge variety of programs, and once her invites started to come in, she prioritized her higher choicesā¦and thatās where she went for interviews.
Haā¦ Nothing different in the scrambling than when my kid went through it 4 years ago. Still had to jump on an interview slot ASAP, and then had to make travel plans, air and hotel. Many times, the air travel was quick, before a 2 week discount fare. So no, I canāt see how this year is any harder.
Donāt get me started on the thousands of dollars for the travel.
This year is easier in many ways. No last minute airline and hotel reservations to make. No need to buy a fancy suitā¦get a nice top! No need for clothes for a night before event.
Way easier! And way less costly.
ETAā¦the locations of the interviews donāt factor either. A student can do two interviews in four days that are 3000 miles apart in different time zones without leaving the comfort of their home.
But yesā¦the folks need to be watchful. Some students have a trusted second person who can respond to interview invites at all times. If a student is doing a surgery rotation, itās not like they can walk out of surgery to deal with invites. Some parents or someone else can pitch in.
@momworried
@thumper1 has it right. Not everyone who receives an interview invitation is going to accept it. Program want to fill all their interview slots because they need to rank enough applicants so they can fill all their residency slots without having to take people through SOAP.
Last year one specialty agreed nationally the programs would only to extend the same number of IIs as they had slots and additionally allowed candidates 48 hours to respond. In return, applicants were asked to limit the number of program they applied to. It didnāt work. Why? Because nearly all applicants exceeded the number of applications, and small number of programs threw out IIs in the usual fashion. That behavior disadvantaged those programs and applicants who tried to abide by the rules. The experiment isnāt being repeated this year.
The trend toward a relatively small number of applicants doing 15, 25 or even 40 interviews when they can only Match to one program has made the Match process unstable on the program side.
Remind your applicant that they donāt need to do 25 interviewsāeven if this year they can do so easily because thereās no travel. See Charting the Outcomes to see what number they need to complete to have high/very high (95%) chance for matching and encourage them to let go any IIs beyond the number. Itās both a courtesy to the programs which they really have no intention of ranking/ranking high and a courtesy their fellow applicants who are getting crowded out of possible interviews they need to Match.
Weāve definitely seen places have slots disappear within a handful of minutes. It seems crazy to me. Iām glad weāre able to cover for our guy when heās working (or showering or whatever).
Heās been quite fortunate TBH. Heās not doing 20+ interviews. He only applied to 22 places. He is interviewing at most of them though (still hoping to hear from one or two more that started in his top tier - time will tell). Iām very glad he doesnāt have to be paying for airfare, etc.