Rest in Peace: College Closings

Parents Forum
1075

It appears that the SUNY system, along with the West Virginia higher ed system, both need to think about how they are going to move forward as systems. If they want everything replicated everywhere, then which campuses need to be eliminated? Or do they want to start having specialty campuses (which SUNY already does to a degree, though the article quoted the president of the professors’ union as saying…

“We are concerned that, given the fact that there are other campuses facing financial difficulties, that this approach could be a template for other campuses. That is very disturbing. It would mark an abandonment of the vision for SUNY as a system across New York state.”

The vision was that students would be able to easily commute to a college where they could major in “pretty much any program they wanted," Kowal said.

“There was some duplication, but it met the needs of communities and students.”

In looking at College Navigator it appears as though there are currently 25 SUNY campuses, and if the budgetary issues are system-wide, then it appears as though there are too many campuses.

When I looked at Niche, however, the map of NY publics didn’t pull up that many SUNY (such as Purchase, for instance)s:

image
image1104×872 103 KB

For those not so familiar with New York, Potsdam is 1h44m from Plattsburgh and 2h35m from Oswego, which appears to be its closest SUNYs.

Thinking that perhaps some of the SUNYs were classified as 2-year programs (with some Bachelor’s), I pulled up the 2-year programs on Niche:

image
image1196×905 112 KB

I’m wondering whether some coordination of the community colleges with the 4-year programs might help make some financial sense, too.

SUNY Potsdam will focus on its biggest programs, which include musical education, mathematics and elementary education.

Recommended for discontinuation are: dance, the master’s program in music performance, theater, art history, arts management, biochemistry, chemistry, physics, French, Spanish and the bachelor’s and master’s programs in public health.

I wonder how Clarkson’s finances are and whether some kind of a merger between the two would make more financial sense. Or perhaps have a program kind of like Cornell where some majors are through the public college and other majors are through the private one? I’m not sure, but I’m wishing them the best.

5 Likes
1076

This jumped out at me in the article:

Smith, who has been president of the campus for six months, had to stop briefly to brush back tears while giving her speech.

I wonder if this is yet another case of (a) a new president of a university not being told how dire the financial picture is until on the job, as discussed a bit upthread, and (b) a woman being the one hired into a no-win situation, as seems to be happening more and more frequently, judging from my informal observation.

3 Likes
1077

https://www.timesunion.com/education/article/suny-potsdam-president-announces-cuts-keep-18374248.php says that “Recommended for discontinuation are: dance, the master’s program in music performance, theater, art history, arts management, biochemistry, chemistry, physics, French, Spanish and the bachelor’s and master’s programs in public health.”

Recent year graduates from College Navigator - SUNY College at Potsdam

Program Bachelor Master Notes
Dance, General 6
Music Performance, General 13 1 only master’s program to be discontinued
Drama and Dramatics / Theatre Arts, General 6
Art history, Criticism and Conservation 0
Fine and Studio Arts Management 7
Biochemistry 4
Chemistry, General 2
Physics, General 2
French Language and Literature 0
Spanish Language and Literature 3
Public Health Education and Promotion 11 0

Presumably, some of the subjects will remain to provide service courses for non-majors.

3 Likes
1079

Agreed. And I would add the Pennsylvania state system to the mix.

Part of the problem is that New York State has been experiencing a decline in population (not sure how it shakes out by age). And that loss of population is more pronounced outside the main metro areas…so less demand for nearby 4 year colleges that offer all the majors.

7 Likes
1080

A 43% decline in enrollment at SUNY Pottsdam is hard to ignore.

5 Likes
1081

And the budget shortfall.

It is sad but reflects the changing demographics in absolute numbers, as well as the competitive realities, including the many online degree providers who offer rigorous classes and flexibility in scheduling. I know online classes aren’t preferred by all, but the growth of the online students at ASU, SNHU, Western Governors and others suggests a solid market…and I expect if we looked at the details some of the target market are people living in relatively rural areas.

6 Likes
1082

That article about Potsdam was a real eye-opener. It’s funny, I have lived most of my life in NY State but couldn’t have told you exactly where Potsdam is located other than it was somewhere “upstate.” So I looked it up on the map. Talk about the middle of nowhere. It looks like the closest city of any note is Ottawa. That location can’t be helping its enrollment numbers.

6 Likes
1083

Maybe but I doubt it.

It looks like she’s spent her career in Academia so she shouldn’t be oblivious to the demographic cliff and its consequences.

Also, at that level I would expect some due diligence. I’m fairly certain she would’ve asked hard questions. I would assume the recruiting firm they used also asked hard questions. Typically there’s tenure clauses concerning payment. An unhappy hire isn’t in their best interest.

Regardless, maybe she’s the right personality to soften the blow and move forward.

1084

SUNY Potsdam is in a bit of a tough spot. It is the smallest of the statutory colleges, it is located in a low population region far from the major NY population centers and it traditionally specialized in music and education particularly music teachers which isn’t a growth field today. Growing up in upstate NY SUNY Potsdam was where one went to study music, or become a teacher, especially a music teacher. I do not recall anyone looking to Potsdam for anything else.

Saint Lawrence University, Clarkson University, and SUNY Canton are all located in the same area. St. Lawrence and Clarkson are very well respected (SLAC and Engineering School respectively) schools with more comprehensive curricula and SUNY Canton has evolved from a 2-year tech campus to becoming a school offering a wide variety of career oriented bachelors degrees. This leaves SUNY Potsdam a bit boxed in regarding academic scope.

With less demand for education degrees and particularly Music education degrees SUNY Potsdam has slowly become a small non-selective teachers college in a remote area. I can see where the SUNY system would like to continue supporting a second North Country College (along with Plattsburg) as part of their mission but it looks like the status quo isn’t going to work long term. A wider discussion on what SUNY Potsdam should become is probably in order within SUNY.

10 Likes
1085

What is interesting is that many of the 4-year SUNYs, with the exception of Buffalo and Stony Brook, do show net prices of under $10k (doable with direct loan and some student work earnings) for NY residents with FAFSA EFC/SAI = $0 and living on campus. I.e. many of the campuses, or perhaps the SUNY system or state, seem to be willing to subsidize residential attendance, which is beneficial for those who are not in commuting range of any that offer the desired majors or academic programs.

https://www.suny.edu/smarttrack/net-price-calculator/

So it may not be essential for Potsdam to exist to provide a commute-accessible campus in its area (if it is even effective at providing commute-accessibility to that many students) if the students are able to attend other SUNYs affordably as residential students.

5 Likes
1086

In general SUNY colleges (and the universities) are incredible bargains. NY funds the SUNY system far better than many other states. In fact, maintaining support for that level of funding is important to the SUNY trustees and may be predicated on ensuring that New York residents continue seeing SUNY benefit all regions.

3 Likes
1087

SUNY Potsdam is actually just 12 miles from SUNY Canton. But there seems to be no overlap in their majors. SUNY Canton is a tech school, while SUNY Potsdam seems to specialize in teaching and the arts. It seems to me that SUNY Canton and SUNY Potsdam should merge. Or perhaps SUNY Canton should merge with Clarkson. SUNY Canton has 2 year degrees and 4 year degrees in fields such as Mechanical Engineering Technology (sort of a more hands-on version of engineering.)

3 Likes
1088

The discussion upthread referenced a number of cases in which the incoming president knew the situation was bad, but where it had been actively hidden by those doing the hiring (and, in one case, apparently from the entire administration of the university!!) so that the new hire didn’t know the depth of the issue until the first day on the job.

And if full documentation of finances is being actively hidden (whether for fear of scaring away potential hires or as a bit of wishful thinking or whatever other motivation), even solid due diligence won’t help.

4 Likes
1089

I looked to see how bad it was … I was surprised that the state level population has been more stable than I had thought - 2020 was the all time high for the state, with a slight post-COVID decline - but as you mention, the real issue might be the change in population away from rural areas and towards the urban centers.
New York Population 1900-2022 | MacroTrends

4 Likes
1090

Really sad about SUNY Potsdam. I have been getting a ton of mail from them and it is such a lovely school.

1 Like
1091

Although it’s definitely sad, SUNY Potsdam is not closing; it seems to be eliminating majors, not entire departments, and the reason (demographics) doesn’t make it as galling as WVU (administrative hubris with no consequences but for others). It’s also not as dire as the PASSHE schools because the same demographics are impacting them but they have a (relatively supportive state) and AFAIK their board didn’t misunderstand its public (PASSHE suffered from a bad case of “build&they will come” which may have worked if costs had been kept level instead of skyrocketing…)
If the college had had more time they seemed willing to look into other solutions. Hopefully the SUNY system finds a way to absorb some of the faculty & staff into the statewide system.

4 Likes
1092

Are other parts of the SUNY system growing?

1093

It is a mixed bag.

SUNY has to deal with the general declining population in NY so the majority of their potential pool has been shrinking over the years. Covid hit SUNY very hard and they are still recovering. The research schools are growing and getting more out of state applications but I am sure that some of that is coming from the weaker of the statutory colleges.

SUNY Potsdam isn’t alone in it’s budget deficit, but it and SUNY Fredonia are smaller and had bigger relative deficits.

SUNY is a bargain for the in state population, between Pell grants and TAP (state aid) less than half of the students pay any tuition at all and the typical cost is below the national average so there might be some room for tuition increases. They will get through this, it has happened before.

I hope that they do not end up closing campuses. NY is mostly a rural state and the SUNY campuses are vital parts of their communities.

8 Likes
1094

The problem (not unique to NY) is that areas of low population density cannot provide many students in commute range, so a campus serving local commuters may be too small to offer a desirable variety of majors.

Of course, a campus can try to make itself attractive to residential students, perhaps by specializing in particular types of majors. But that kind of goes against the idea of being a generalized educational resource for the local community, and is not always successful (e.g. some PASSHE schools in PA).

Since it appears that most SUNYs do support in-state students with financial aid for residential attendance (unlike in many other states), that does not block a student from studying a major not offered locally (or if the student lives too far from any SUNY campus). But if that policy continues, that may make the argument for keeping some of the smaller campuses in low population density areas open less convincing.

1 Like
1095

SUNY Potsdam’s main problem is its location.

Recently spoke with a high ranking military officer who shared that a common form of discipline in his branch of service was to send offenders to a military base in this area of New York state.