<p>Should the age of the applicant be a factor in grad school admissions? Apparently, one university thinks so - they rejected a remarkable student who earned her Bachelor's degree at 17 at the same institution.</p>
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I'm Kelsey Caetano-Anoll</p>
<p>Well, the same thing can happen for medical school. She says that she wants to be a clinical psychologist, but how many people would feel comfortable relaying all their private information to a minor? It’s a matter of maturity not grades.</p>
<p>This kind of thing exists on a lesser scale even for kids who want to graduate one year early (so ~21). Even on this forum, you can search and see how forum regulars advise those students to take that extra year and research or take grad classes rather than graduate early.</p>
<p>In addition, there are some graduate programs that are not open to people without “life” or career experience. If you want to be a school principal, for example, you need to teach for 5 or 10 years first. And any program for school administration that accepts you without that kind of teaching experience is setting you up for a near impossible job hunt afterwards. As a teacher, I would not work under a principal who had never taught. Imagine this girl had majored in secondary education – she would be teaching students older than herself! The thought of her trying to control a classroom or break up a fight. She would be having the same difficulties getting a job. Saying this, I’m not aware of the specifics of clinical psychology, but I don’t think there is a clear cut yes or no age answer for every graduate program. I mean, if she were a math major, there wouldn’t even be an issue of her age in my opinion.</p>
<p>I agree with hazelorb. I think that age or life experience should be a factor in fields and occupations where they are relevant. If clinical psychology programs are concerned that she might be lacking experience, the burden of proof should be on her.</p>
<p>My opinion would be different if she was going into theoretical physics. For what it’s worth, I have a friend in math who started his PhD program at 18 and had no age-related problems getting into graduate school.</p>
<p>I can see a business school wanting proof of performance in the workplace for prospective MBA students, but I’d guess many, if not most, enrollees in the psych grad program are moving on directly from undergrad school. Saying that people won’t take advice from someone a few years younger than average smacks of prejudice. If I was seeking help from a professional, I’d be far more interested in his/her knowledge, ability, relevant certifications, etc. It wouldn’t occur to me to ask about or consider calendar age. I’ve encountered young-looking MDs, and just assumed they were lucky to have a youthful appearance, not that they would be less competent.</p>
<p>I may be a little biased - in my first job after graduation, I was told that I couldn’t go into sales (the preferred career path in that firm) because customers wouldn’t listen to a 19-year old engineer. That likely wouldn’t happen today, or at least the company wouldn’t be dumb enough to say it.</p>
<p>Why did her mother and family attend her graduate school visit/meeting?</p>
<p>This is a cardinal rule for graduate school applications: Parental involvement is heavily frowned upon. It makes you look like you’re not independent enough to succeed in the program. She shouldn’t have brought her mother in to talk with the admissions director - mom had no business being there, and that probably only reinforced the department’s view of Kelsey not having the maturity to take on the program.</p>
<p>polarscribe - I agree wholeheartedly. If you are trying to convince someone of your maturity, bringing your mom along is a bad idea.</p>
<p>On one hand, I can see her point, in that age should not be a factor in most such decisions. At the same time, maturity should be, and is a concern even with 22-year-old graduates. In some fields, experience becomes a significant requirement, but ANY grad program places strains on the student far beyond those of an undergraduate program.</p>
<p>In this specific case, I think that this is not arbitrary. She was applying to grad school at her alma mater. All of the professors with whom she had been studying under and working with and who could attest to her maturity would be on the committee or down the hall. I suppose it is possible that she had professors pulling for her but who were drowned out, but it seems just as likely to me that in her specific case she had one or more professors who knew her enough to chime and say that they thought she was not ready. If this had occurred at another school, I might believe it was simple age discrimination, but this school knew her better than anyone else could have, and they thought she was not ready.</p>
<p>This is the same exact situation my friend had except minus the reverse age discrimination. He graduated UCLA(~3.8 GPA) with a BS in applied mathematics and economics at 17 and wanted to either get a job or go to grad school. He couldn’t legally get a job because he’s not 18 so he decided to take a gap year and relax and apply to graduate school afterwards. He has intrigued professors at UCLA and they looked eager to work with him so I believe if he applied for graduate school later this year/next year he will not have age related issues getting in. </p>
<p>On a very ironic note, he is/went on vacation recently to Europe(possibly backpacking). Maybe the author should take the suggestion. I’ve heard it’s quite fun.</p>
<p>“Why did her mother and family attend her graduate school visit/meeting?”
OMG! that faux pau ALONE is reason enough for the rejection, as it shows immaturity and a lack of judgement. She either received some very bad advise, or is just not ready for the complete independence from parents that is expected of all grad school students.</p>
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<p>I’m not an expert, but based on the kids I know who have done this, that isn’t the case. From what I’ve seen, getting into a clinical psych program is more competitive than getting into other psych programs and 3 or 4 years of work experience seems to be about the norm. Research experience is essential.</p>
<p>According to wikipedia–yeah, I know, not the best source, but it’s usually right for this sort of stuff–there’s a real crisis in internships right now. You can’t get licensed without doing one, and according to wikipedia, 25% of all newly minted grads get no matches and only 50% match in accredited programs.</p>
<p>Maybe the folks in the grad department felt that her age would be a handicap in getting a match and she’d be better off delaying entry.</p>
<p>Age is just a number. Just sayin</p>
<p>I do not like to post these types of comments. However, I was interested in reading this article and comments because I know the author. She was one of my students when I was a teacher assistant in one of her courses. I never realized that she was younger, neither when she came to my office hours nor when I saw her interactions with students in class discussions. I was shocked when last week (because of this issue) I found out that she was just 17. She is very talented and talks like an adult. I have to say that if this remarkable girl has not life experiences that is not for me to say, but yes I can say that she is more mature than most of my students and perhaps myself when I was in college.
Also, for what I understand from the people involved in this case is that the parents of the students met with the admission director ONLY after her admission had been denied. No committee at U of I would ever allow either students or parents in front of committee members to listen what they have to say about their applicants. I believe that another professor had already told her that she had not been accepted into the program because she was too young and for that reason her parents wanted to meet with the Psychology department to discuss the reasons for the denial of admission. It was then that they were told that her age contributed to the rejection. I believe anybody would have done the same that her parents did, inquire.
I believe she would have been a great addition for the program. In fact, when I spoke with her few weeks ago, I found out that she was just about to publish a manuscript for the thesis she has been doing with another professor at U of I.</p>
<p>No, anybody would not have done the same. I would never have had my parents inquire as to why I got denied admission to a graduate program. It’s not their responsibility or their business.</p>
<p>There’s a real difference between undergraduate study and graduate school. Limited parental involvement/discussion is considered OK at the start of one’s undergraduate career because the student is still a minor and is just transitioning to what we culturally consider adulthood.</p>
<p>But by the time a student is applying for graduate school, they’re expected to be independent adults, and getting parents involved in the process isn’t just unnecessary, it’s considered to be a sign that the student lacks the maturity and independence to succeed in graduate studies.</p>
<p>“No, anybody would not have done the same. I would never have had my parents inquire as to why I got denied admission to a graduate program. It’s not their responsibility or their business”</p>
<p>Sorry, but I was not referring to just biological parents or sperm donors. I was referring to parents. Parents who do more than bring human beings into existence. Parents who also care, educate and nurture their children. Although there are exceptions, this is what I meant when when I said, “I believe anybody would have done the same that her parents did”</p>
<p>What troubles me most about this article is the level of distress this girl is experiencing from not being able to go to this program at this school right now. She talks about not wanting to put her career on hold. She’s 17.</p>
<p>The professor who suggested she backpack through Europe was trying to help and this suggestion caused her so much anxiety that she has to portray it as an offensive comment. Maybe her professors want her to broaden her horizons before beginning their program.</p>
<p>Whatever their misgivings, they have made their decision and as long as it isn’t discriminatory they can use whatever criteria they want. There are other schools, did she apply to any of them?</p>
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And they are great parents… but isn’t it time she stopped being treated like a child? Their concern and interest were certainly understandable, but their being directly involved in what should have been a professional and academic matter between adults is not. Their attendance was no more appropriate nor any more indicative of their daughter’s maturity than if they had showed up to ask an employer why she had not been hired.</p>
<p>Part of being a caring, educating, and nurturing parent is preparing your child to be an adult, and then letting them or even forcing them to be one. At 17 I would normally consider her a child, but if she has graduated from college, claims to be an adult, and wants to be treated as one, then it is time for mommy and daddy to stay at home.</p>
<p>April87, would it EVER be appropriate for PARENTS to talk to the personnel director of a company after their child was turned down for a job??? NO??? Well, applying to grad school is, in more ways than not, just like applying for a job. Parents should neither be seen or heard by any graduate school admissions dept, ever. That fact that they were, shows how unprepared this students is for the realities of graduate school, at least at this time.</p>
<p>Who bets April87 is Kelsey?</p>
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I simply could not agree more. My program intersects three different departments, and I was the only student in my cohort from all three who came directly from undergrad. Everyone else had taken at least one year off to work, travel, research, or do something else. In fact, my own undergraduate professors had strongly recommended that I do the same.</p>
<p>Once I started grad school, I realized why. It’s a difficult and stressful process that’s totally unlike college. If you’re not 100% committed to it (heck, even if you are), you’ll often find yourself questioning why you’re doing it all. I finished my master’s rather successfully, but I was very burned out toward the end. I wised up and took some time to recharge before continuing for a PhD.</p>
<p>Being rejected by graduate programs is never fun, and being rejected by one’s alma mater is an especially bitter pill to swallow. Still, I can’t help but think that she’s the better for it in the long run. She sounds like a great candidate for graduate programs, and I don’t think some life experience will do anything except improve her application.</p>
<p>Roger Dooley asked:
“Should the age of the applicant be a factor in grad school admissions?”</p>
<p>NO. The Federal Age Discrimination Act of 1975 specifically bars educational institutions that receive federal funds from discriminating on the basis of age.</p>
<p>From the US Department of Education:</p>
<p>"CIVIL RIGHTS
Age Discrimination: Overview of the Law</p>
<p>The Age Discrimination Act of 1975 prohibits discrimination based on age in programs or activities that receive federal financial assistance. The U.S. Department of Education gives financial assistance to schools and colleges. The Age Discrimination regulation describes conduct that violates the Act. The Age Discrimination regulation is enforced by the Office for Civil Rights and is in the Code of Federal Regulations at 34 CFR Part 110.</p>
<p>The Age Discrimination Act of 1975 does not cover employment discrimination. Complaints of employment discrimination based on age may be filed with the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission, under the Age Discrimination in Employment Act.</p>
<p>The regulations under the Age Discrimination Act, however, allow you to file a claim in Federal court under that law only after (1) 180 days have passed since you file your complaint with OCR and OCR has made no finding, or (2) OCR issues a finding in favor of the recipient. In the latter case, OCR will promptly notify you and remind you of your right to file in court.</p>
<p>The Age Discrimination Act of 1975 prohibits retaliation for filing a complaint with OCR or for advocating for a right protected by the Act."</p>
<p>[source: [Age</a> Discrimination Overview of the Laws](<a href=“http://www2.ed.gov/policy/rights/guid/ocr/ageoverview.html]Age”>Age Discrimination Overview of the Laws) ]</p>
<p>n.b. in a case decided earlier this year regarding age discrimination in undergraduate access to programs, OCR ruled in favor of the younger-than-usual student.</p>