Rhodes students know their US History

Parents Forum
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Actually, anybody who bothered to read the papers last week would have gotten a course in Constitutional issues without having to attend a whole class on it.

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<p>Realistically, I doubt that many beauty school students spent a lot of time reading last week's newspaper coverage of constitutional issues. I read the newspapers regularly (but not everything in them) and don't recall seeing the coverage last week. </p>

<p>However, I must say that I was intrigued when I walked by an engaging Constitution Day display at the local cc. The cc seems to take this requirement pretty seriously. I don't know how many of the students had time to pay much attention (a lot are juggling work and families along with classes.)</p>

<p>Still, with a little creativity and imagination, it seems to me that a college determined to be resourceful could find ways to educate students about American history without making it a class---e.g., post provocative constitutional questions for students to ponder on the back of bathroom stall doors or on mirrors over the sinks or on placemats in the dining halls or on screensavers on campus computers or on the walls adjacent to where students wait in line for the cafeteria. </p>

<p>EDIT: I'm not sure who at the beauty school would have the incentive to put a lot of thought into an engaging and educational presentation, but it would be nice to see academic colleges invest a bit of resourcefulness in this endeavor.</p>

<p>EDIT #2: I agree that American students should also know more about the history of cultures other than ours, and it seems to me that an interesting way to observe Constitution Day would be to put our American Constitution into an international context--how many other countries have written constitutions, which of them use ours as a model, which use some other model, how do countries without written constitutions manage without them, what is life like in a place where there is no Bill of Rights, how does the US military transmit (or not) the values implicit in our Constitution in their dealings with citizens of occupied countries and prisoners of war, etc.</p>

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<p>I really don't think the world needs more stickers with constitutional issues on them. That's not college education, that's not what higher education is (or ought to be) about. That's marketing.</p>

<p>And how about this? Great universities have, by and large, predated great nations, and made them possible. Oxford and the Sorbonne existed long before England and France attained anything like coherence; Harvard ("first child of their wilderness") will celebrate its 400th anniversary before the Constitution its 250th. There likely wouldn't be a United States, or its Constitution, without its universities, and American universities have done a pretty good job of supplying the people to make our constitutional system work. They are the envy of the world, and not a small part of our hegemony. Can we maybe avoid messing with them by imposing politically determined curricular requirements?</p>

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<p>Intrigued by marite's reference to the Constitution Day newspaper coverage, I went back and found this interesting webpage on the NYT site:</p>

<p><a href="http://www.nytimes.com/ref/college/collegespecial2/coll-constitutionday.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.nytimes.com/ref/college/collegespecial2/coll-constitutionday.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>I followed links from that NYT site to a Constitutional quiz here, which I tried:</p>

<p><a href="http://www.constitutionfacts.com/fun_zone/test.htm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.constitutionfacts.com/fun_zone/test.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>I was delighted to learn that my "Constitution IQ" is "genius," because I knew the answer to such arcane questions as "What is the maximum number of years a person can serve as President of the United States?" (Answer is NOT eight years, by the way. It's 10 years. I knew that because I remember browsing through the enclyopedia and reading the Constitution as a little kid shortly after JFK's assassination and realizing that LBJ could potentially serve two full terms in addition to finishing out JFK's term."</p>

<p>More seriously, our family has had a large poster copy of the Constitution on our kitchen wall since my kids were small--I remember they found it fascinating reading growing up, and it is still a fond and familiar part of our kitchen. (More interesting to read at breakfast than the cereal boxes!)</p>

<p>Anyway, I still like my idea of colleges posting thought-provoking Constitutional questions (instead of trivia like the quiz linked above) on Constitution Day.</p>

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That's not college education, that's not what higher education is (or ought to be) about. That's marketing.

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<p>Any college that doesn't consider marketing an essential part of its operations will quickly go out of business.</p>

<p>A college is first and foremost a marketplace of ideas. </p>

<p>In order to sustain itself, a college needs to attract financial support by convincing society it has something worthwhile to offer. That is marketing.</p>

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Can we maybe avoid messing with them by imposing politically determined curricular requirements?

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<p>I agree that politically determined curricular requirements are a mistake, but there are currently pressures going in the opposite direction. (Extending NCLB to colleges, e.g.)</p>

<p>It will take some serious marketing by colleges to convince the American people that they are doing such a great job of educating their students in the public interest that their elected leaders should refrain from attaching unreasonable strings to the government funding they provide. </p>

<p>Marketing is not a dirty word. Marketing at its best is convincing the world in an honest and credible way that you have something of value to offer it.</p>

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I read the newspapers regularly (but not everything in them) and don't recall seeing the coverage last week.

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<p>Really?</p>

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Setting the stage for final passage of the bill, the Senate rejected an amendment guaranteeing terror suspects the right to challenge their imprisonment in court.

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<p>Isn't it about habeas corpus? S, whose encounter with APUSH is two years old, thought it was about that. Then there is the issue of whether the US is bound by treaties to which it is party. </p>

<p>But knowing what the Constitution says and being able to see its relevance are different things. Just like my S saying he knew a physics formula but did not realize it applied to the problem that showed up on his mdterm.</p>

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<p><a href="Extending%20NCLB%20to%20colleges,%20e.g.">quote</a>

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<p>This, too, shall pass.</p>

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Isn't it about habeas corpus?

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<p>Yes, but I thought you were talking about particular articles in last week's newspaper that explicitly addressed the Constitution as a written document forming the backbone of our government.</p>

<p>Great Britain does not have a written constitution, but the right of habeas corpus is an important principal of their unwritten common law.</p>

<p>What is special and precious about the US Constitution (compared to common law) is the tangible, written, and explicit guarantee of rights like habeas corpus.</p>

<p>What is particularly poignant about our Constitution in the light of current events is that our President (and Congress and judges and members of the military) swear an oath to uphold the Constitution.</p>

<p>These are things worth reflecting on explicitly from time to time, especially as our government sometimes has the chutzpah to advise other countries on drawing up their own constitutions to our satisfaction.</p>

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<p>Yes, to all the above, but that should be the job of the spineless media. </p>

<p>My point is you can memorize until kingdom come. The problem is applying it in daily life. And that's not the role of universities.</p>

<p>I want my S's math class to be about math, his class on Greek mythology to be about Greek mythology, and so on.</p>

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I want my S's math class to be about math, his class on Greek mythology to be about Greek mythology, and so on.

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<p>I understand and appreciate that sentiment, but I think that if the taxpayers (through their elected leaders) want to attach strings to their funds, it's up to colleges to explain why those strings are unjustified, or else to stop accepting the funds. (A few colleges do refuse to accept government funds, notably including Grove City College, which, ironically, is high on the ISI list.)</p>

<p>When my father went to college, there was a draft, and the vast majority of young men either served in the Armed Forces or in some form of alternative service as conscientious objectors.</p>

<p>Few Americans support the idea of a draft any more, but the far more modest request that academic communities of young people generously funded by the taxpayers thoughtfully engage in some reflection about our Constitutional form of government doesn't seem unreasonable to me. This is particularly so since the law gives great lattitude to colleges to decide how to interpret and carry out this mandate. (There is no requirement that math classes or mythology classes teach the Constitution, simply that the college provide an educational program on the Constitution.)</p>

<p>(I do admit, however, that if I were running a beauty school, I'd find this mandate rather odd, and I wonder how many beauty schools actually realize they are technically required by law to provide an educational program on the Constitution once a year.)</p>

<p>EDIT:

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Yes, to all the above, but that should be the job of the spineless media.

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The media do not get much if anything in the way of taxpayer money so they have little or no obligation to promote thinking about these issues. (PBS and NPR used to get considerable public money, but there's very little of that any more.) That they choose to do so is commendable, but probably driven by (a) self-interest because freedom of the press is a cherished constitutional guarantee for them and (b) whether the particular constitutional question sells newspapers or promotes a public image for their newspaper which will enhance its long-term survival.</p>

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<p>If I were a math major, I'd find that stipulation rather odd. But there is a greater chance are that a student at a liberal arts college or university took APUSH than a student at a beauty school. Their need is probably greater. Remember that most nail salon operators are Vietnamese with limited English? </p>

<p>Another issue is: Would the content of the day of reflection be mandated or would it be open to all sorts of demagogues? I can imagine Noam Chomsky holding forth, or Ward Churchill, or the various 9/11 conspiracy theorists.. Bad idea.</p>

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<p>As I mentioned above, Grove City College is one of the few institutions of higher learning NOT required to observe Constitution Day.</p>

<p>Here is an ironic piece on the Grove City website posted shortly after Constitution Day a year ago in which they speculate on whether it is even constitutional for Congress to be involved in education at all, in any way shape or form, let alone to mandate the observation of Constitution Day in institutions accepting Federal money.</p>

<p><a href="http://gcc.savvior.com/Constitution_Day__Byrd_s_Latest_Highway_to_Nowhere.php?view_all=1%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://gcc.savvior.com/Constitution_Day__Byrd_s_Latest_Highway_to_Nowhere.php?view_all=1&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>The Grove City argument highlights the Federalism distinction made by the constitution, i.e., powers of the Federal government vs. powers reserved to the States and to the People. Since the Constitution does not explicitly grant a role for the Federal government in education, some--like the Grove City author--have argued it should stay entirely out of education--neither funding it in any way nor attaching strings to it. </p>

<p>Much of the case for the Federal role in education has been under the rubric of national defense. (A good deal of funding for math research has historically come from defense department and NSA funds, by the way.) This is something for math majors to think about--outside of class, if not inside it.</p>

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<p>Yup. My husband's PH.D. research was entirely funded by the Navy.
But there is a good reason for not mandating content, or who shall teach what.</p>

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Another issue is: Would the content of the day of reflection be mandated or would it be open to all sorts of demagogues? I can imagine Noam Chomsky holding forth, or Ward Churchill, or the various 9/11 conspiracy theorists.. Bad idea.

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<p>The content of the day has already been mandated simply as "an educational program about the Constitution." It has been left to colleges as to how to interpret this mandate. In practice, it appears that any sort of good faith attempt to comply will preserve the institution's eligibility for Federal education funds. The actual law requiring Federally funded educational institutions (of all levels--apparently pre-K through purely graduate institutions) to observe Constitution Day was passed in 2004. It was only in May 2005 that the Education Department promulgated regulations implementing it.</p>

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<p>Here's a good one, my husband's breast cancer research was funded by the army. Politics!</p>

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<p>Congress is known to pass bad bills. However, more knowledge of math might help taxpayers know more about our budget deficit, congressional pork, etc...</p>

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But there is a good reason for not mandating content, or who shall teach what.

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<p>Agreed. But it is up to academia to make a case to the taxpayers on whom they rely for funding to justify their independence, to negotiate over what strings are acceptable and what not. </p>

<p>The price of [academic] liberty is eternal vigilance, by which I mean that colleges and universities (other than Grove City and a few others staunchly opposed to accepting government funds) can't expect to do whatever they like without concern as to whether the taxpayers and their elected representatives still consider them a worthy use of their funds.</p>

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<p>Congress can be elected and de-elected. When I came to this country, the HUAC was in full flower. Thankfully it was eliminated. </p>

<p>I don't have a beef against civic literacy. But it is not more important than the ability to read critically, or write cogently; it is not more important than basic scientific literacy or numeracy. It is not more important than knowing something about the world we live in, politically, environmentally, culturally.</p>

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Congress can be elected and de-elected. When I came to this country, the HUAC was in full flower. Thankfully it was eliminated.

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<p>Indeed, and a few years before HUAC was eliminated, we had a draft in place. Thankfully that was eliminated too. (Student activitism and leadership had a LOT to do with that!)</p>

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I don't have a beef against civic literacy. But it is not more important than the ability to read critically, or write cogently; it is not more important than basic scientific literacy or numeracy. It is not more important than knowing something about the world we live in, politically, environmentally, culturally.

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<p>I would say that true civic literacy encompasses all those other abilities as well. To vote and serve on a jury and exercise the other responsibilities of a citizen intelligently require critical thinking, reading, numeracy, communication skills, and knowledge of the greater world.</p>

<p>But if we are going to ask society to help fund the institutions of higher learning our children attend, then we should not be surprised if society asks those institutions to be accountable to it for the education produced with those funds.</p>

<p>The key question is: "Who determines the terms of accountability?"</p>

<p>If educational institutions have wise, astute, and proactive leadership, those institutions can be in the enviable position of establishing the terms on which they will be accountable.</p>

<p>What I mean by "wise, astute, and proactive" leadership is that it is up to university educators to find ways that they are producing public value to justify their taxpayer support in terms that will be clearly valid to the politicians who must vote to offer the taxpayer support.</p>

<p>If they take public support for granted and neglect to demonstrate the value of their work to the public and the politicians who represent them, then they should not be surprised if the politicians begin to clamor for unacceptable strings.</p>

<p>Colleges often encourage students who are receiving scholarships from donated funds to write to the donors (or their descendents) to thank them for the generosity that makes their education possible and to describe how they are benefiting from those funds.</p>

<p>Maybe colleges that accept taxpayer funding should encourage students to write letters of thanks to the taxpayers who contribute to their education, expressing their appreciation for all they are learning from an institution partially supported by their tax dollars.</p>

<p>Faculty could also write similar letters of appreciation, as could administrators.</p>

<p>Just being mindful of the extent to which their educational opportunities are taxpayer-supported (even for fullpay students) would be an educational experience in and of itself. Reflecting on how their educational experiences will benefit society at large as well as themselves is also a valuable exercise. In the course of writing those letters, students might begin to reflect to themselves, "Why is it that the taxpayers have given all this money to support this institution I attend? What was the political decision process that led to this funding that partially contributes to my education? In what ways can I give back to society throughout my life?"</p>

<p>The letters could be posted on a public website maintained by the college. </p>

<p>That is an example of what I mean by an institution proactively determining the terms on which it will be accountable for delivering public value in exchange for the taxpayer support it receives.</p>

<p>Perhaps in being proactive and reflective in this way, educational institutions can head off some of the most unacceptable terms of accountability politicians might otherwise seek to impose.</p>

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<p>Hey, that is very different from having classes on the Constitution or any other specific topic. That's what general education is for.
And who says universities don't know how to lobby Congress?</p>

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<p>Well kids. Here is what I learned. Number one thing I learned is that, for the poster who claims that Rhodes College accepts "average" students, is that they are dead wrong</p>

<p><a href="http://www.rhodes.edu/admissions/3717.asp%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.rhodes.edu/admissions/3717.asp&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p><a href="http://www.rhodes.edu/admissions/426.asp%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.rhodes.edu/admissions/426.asp&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>These ^ are the academic admissions requirements for potential Rhodes College students.
And, they sure as shucks do not seem average to me. </p>

<p><a href="http://www.rhodes.edu/academics/539.asp%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.rhodes.edu/academics/539.asp&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>This ^ is the "jist" of the formal academic degree requirements of Rhodes College. Those of you outside of the South might not know this, but everyone in Tennessee has to take a plethora of various History classes in order to earn a High School Diploma. Ones preparation for all of these History classes starts in Junior High School. Therefore, I assume that those Rhodes students "quizzed" who were from Tennessee or who did scads of AP's or APUSH hadn't many problems with the little quizzes. </p>

<p>As I am, I think, the only person on this thread who actually lives in Memphis, Tn. I thought that you folks might like to know a bit more about Rhodes College. My boyfriend of the past four years is a tenured Professor there. In the media here in Memphis, this with Rhodes and all was mentioned just a bit in a nice and innocent way. </p>

<p>Trust me. If you lived here, you would also like to hear something positive and innocent about a nice little private College like Rhodes. Maybe the broad generalisations can stop now? I read through this whole thread and a very fair amount of you folks were kind of going overboard with the broad generalisations. And, I figure that if Rhodes was not in the South, some of you folks would not have been soo silly with some of the postings. Shoot, who cares if some folks were pulled out of going to the library to take a little quiz for a survey? Leave it be, all of us in Memphis are not taking this near as seriously as some of you people here.</p>