Rice vs. Duke vs. Princeton

College Search & Selection
1

Major: Mechanical Engineering

Cost: Rice ~$65k, Duke and Princeton ~$70k

Additional info: Rice is in the family with both of my parents having attended and my older brother currently attending. I’m extremely familiar with Rice (I’m in state) and I really like the strength of the residential college system and the sense of freedom allowed to the students there. That being said, I’m frequently getting told that passing up on Princeton would be a mistake. My Mom is particularly scared about Princeton being elitist and full of privilege that wouldn’t necessarily be found at Duke or Rice. I haven’t researched Duke much, but I am going to visit because I think there’s a chance that I’ll really enjoy it. I’m also going to visit Princeton too, of course.

I’m also very involved in orchestra and would like to continue playing in college, if anyone can comment on the schools’ strength in this.

Any help would be appreciated! Please let me know what y’all think! Also feel free to ask me for more information if you think it would help provide context. Thanks!

2

If I understand correctly, you will be a full pay student at all three. Confused because one of your earlier threads discussed Posse Foundation.

If full pay at all three & with stats strong enough for Duke & Princeton & Rice, then you should have received scholarship offers from some schools.

What about Texas-Austin ?

3

Yes, I would be essentially full pay at all three (I got a little bit from Duke). I didn’t advance past the semifinalist round for Posse.

I did receive 7,000 to attend UT, but I’m not a big fan of the campus. I didn’t really feel at home, and I think the prominence of frats and sororities would make it tough for me to be really socially involved (I don’t want to join Greek Life).

4

@Publisher ^

5

If you do not want Greek life, then Duke may not be the best fit for you.

Eating clubs at Princeton strike some as elitist.

Rice might be the best fit for you.

6

I don’t think you should worry about Princeton being elitist. They’ve recently been touting the fact that ~20% of their offers were to first-gen college students, and that about ~25% are from lower income backgrounds. I don’t think you would have a negative experience with the student body.

source: https://www.princeton.edu/news/2019/03/28/princeton-pleased-offer-admission-1895-students-class-2023

Both Princeton and Rice have the residential college model which is nice for creating social connections, especially if you don’t see yourself in greek life. Rice has no greek life, while Princeton has eating clubs - I think those are pretty innocuous though, since you join by lottery and only a small number do the bicker (just a traditional “rush” process). Duke’s scene would be more dominated by the frats.

You should really just visit and see which campus you vibe with. Everyone will have their preferences. That being said, I think I might personally be inclined towards Princeton. It’s recruiting/connections/alum base just tend to be a tad stronger broadly across multiple disciplines than the other programs, and I think it’s always good to experience a new setting (east coast vs your Texas roots). But it’s perfectly understandable if you feel like the support network at Rice is too good to pass up.

7

“My Mom is particularly scared about Princeton being elitist and full of privilege that wouldn’t necessarily be found at Duke or Rice.”

That’s from the Fitzgeraldian popular imagination born of Great Gatsby, not from today’s reality. My son hasn’t encountered anything “elitist” or “privilege” at Princeton. The only thing that he’s encountered anything remotely resembling any of that is his discovery that so many kids are wearing “Canada Goose” jacket with the price tag of $1,000 or around there during the winter season. My son wore the same $40 jacket all winter and survived just fine, so don’t let Canada Goose scare you. :slight_smile:

“I’m also very involved in orchestra and would like to continue playing in college, if anyone can comment on the schools’ strength in this.”

I don’t know anything about Duke orchestra, so I won’t go into that, but both Rice and Princeton have excellent orchestras. In fact, both made the list of top-20 most impressive college orchestras in the nation:

https://www.onlineschoolscenter.com/20-impressive-university-orchestras-america/

Rice, however, has the Shepherd School of Music, so a successful auditioning into its top orchestra and chamber groups with the music performance majoring musicians might be more difficult for non-music majors. But it all depends on your level and skills, of course.

My son is currently a member of Princeton University Orchestra (PUO). Princeton doesn’t have a school of music (it does have dept. of music, however), so no priority chair spots going to anyone other than strictly by your skills level displayed during its annual audition. Many of its members are highly accomplished, having honed their skills from their middle to high school years in places like pre-college Juilliard, NEC, Colburn, etc. Princeton has a second-tiered Sinfonia orchestra. The audition for PUO tends to get more competitive every other year, because PUO tours a select country in Europe every other year, all expenses paid for by the school, so a greater display of interest in the touring year. This year, my son toured three cities in Spain, for example. There are several other groups that you can also participate in. Some members of PUO, including my son, are in Opus 21, a chamber group that consists of about, well, 21. Then there are groups for pianists, jazz musicians, etc. They even have Laptop Orchestra. So, no lack of opportunities for continuing your interest in performing.

8

I’m not sure about accessibility to the highest groups at Rice if you are not in their school of music. There is an orchestra opportunity available for credit for non-music majors. I would call and speak to someone at Shepherd. My ds considered Rice but matriculated elsewhere. In order to take lessons from top faculty, he would have needed to have taken those as a private student rather than a university student and would get no credit.

Here is the list of courses available for non-music majors. The orchestra is listed there. As I said, I am guessing the top orchestra may not be available. If that is important to you, I would call and ask.

https://music.rice.edu/non-major-offerings-spring-2019

9

Parents, elite school enthusiasts and grads. It’s “Elite” “Top ten” “Tippy Top” “Uber elite” “HPYSM as an adjective”

Student. “I”m concerned it might be a bit elitist at these schools”

Response. “ No. No. Let’s show you how elite they are at being un-elite”

LOL. CC cracks me up.

OP. I would go to Princeton. Break it up with all the Rice connections. And it’s a beautiful place and has a real global name recognition. Congrats and good luck!

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@ajc000 I d go to Princeton. The undergrad quality is unparalleled and the global recognition of the schools is well ahead of the other true. Re: the elitist concern. Yes Princeton might seem elitist but I think they also have the highest % of first gen students in the ivy league and Duke is arguably more elitist.

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My sister and her husband attended Rice so I am very familiar with the quality of education available at Rice. Since your parents and brother have attended Rice I will not provide info on Rice but help you understand how you could fit in at Princeton.

“My Mom is particularly scared about Princeton being elitist and full of privilege that wouldn’t necessarily be found at Duke or Rice.”

This is not a problem. I attended a public HS as did most of my friends. 60% of the students receive financial aid. There are more first gen low income students than alumni children. Visit for Princeton Preview and you will discover the other admitted students are similar to you.

The residential college system at Rice and Princeton are similar; however, I believe Rice has changed since my sister attended.

Frats/sororities are not important at Princeton. For their junior and senior years students have the option to continue to eat in their residential college or join an eating club. Students that want to join an eating club may join a club simply by telling the club that they want to join or go through a “rush” type process to join other clubs. If you join the Princeton University Orchestra you might to decide to join the same eating club as your friends in the orchestra.

Both the Rice and Princeton orchestras are considered among the top 20 in the US. Other instrumental groups at Princeton are Princeton University Sinfonia, Princeton University Wind Ensemble, Cornel West Theory, Shape Machine, Princeton University Chamber Ensemble, Undergraduate Composers Collective, Music in Mind, Princeton Classical Music Players, Princeton Pops, and many brass and international groups. You may be interested in the Princeton Laptop Orchestra. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UChiK8wRwAugDuABbtHmNK4g

When you attend Princeton Preview you may want to obtain information on the program with the Royal College of Music, London were exceptionally talented students may qualify for a five-year, double-degree program (Bachelor of Arts from Princeton and Master of Music from the Royal College of Music) that includes study in London for the fall term of the junior year. Visit the Lewis Center for the Arts. This complex has many practice rooms and performance space. The residential colleges sponsor trips into NYC or Philadelphia to listen to concerts, attend Broadway plays, or attend an opera.

Princeton’s music department was established in 1946, and 15 years later it became one of the first in the country to offer a Ph.D. in composition. Former Professor Milton Babbitt helped to establish and co-directed the Columbia-Princeton Electronic Music Center in New York City, which housed the RCA Mark II Electronic Music Synthesizer, the first American machine designed for the production of electronic music. The Certificate Program in Musical Performance provides an opportunity for students to develop their performing skills. Students in the Program in Musical Performance are required to pursue some kind of performance study and therefore the department subsidizes the entire cost of weekly lessons taken with teachers under contract with the department. Caroline Shaw GS, who studied composition in the University’s Department of Music, has won the 2013 Pulitzer Prize for Music for her a cappella piece Partita for 8 Voices. Shaw is the youngest winner of the Pulitzer Prize for Music since the award’s inception in 1943. Julia Wolfe *12 is a 2016 MacArthur Fellow. She is a post-minimalist composer whose work combines influences from folk, classical, and rock music. Her pieces, including Cruel Sister (2004) and Anthracite Fields (2013) which was awarded the Pulitzer Prize for Music in 2015. Pascal Le Boeuf GS composition Alkaline was nominated for a Grammy in 2017.

Since you enjoy math you may be interested in the research by Professor Dmitri Tymoczko, a Rhodes Scholar is a composer and music theorist. In the first paper on music theory published by Science magazine Dmitri showed that two-note cords occupy the space of a Mobius strip, a two surface embedded in a three-dimensional space. More complex cords inhabited a multidimensional space that is twisted back on itself called orbifolds. Music cords have a geometric shape.
http://www.princeton.edu/pr/pwb/08/0428/music/ and http://www.sciencenews.org/view/generic/id/9450/title/The_Geometry_of_Music and his YouTube video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NnvynOyZI-Q

While I would expect that ME at Rice and Princeton would be similar; however USN&WR does rate Princeton higher.

Enjoy Princeton Preview.

12

Here’s the list of music opportunities for non-music majors at Rice. It does look like they have a separate orchestra for non-music majors:

https://music.rice.edu/non-major-offerings-spring-2019

EDIT: sorry, @Hoggirl has already linked it above.

13

They’re all elitist and full of privilege. How elitist? Let us see just how many rich kids go to each.

Percent of percentile by income:
Top 20%; Top 10%; Top 1%; Top 0.1%
Princeton: 72%; 58%; 17%; 3.1%
Duke: 69%; 56%; 19%; 3.4%
Rice: 64%; 50%; 9.8%; < 1%

Median family income:
Princeton: $186,100
Duke: $186,700

Rice: $160,800

USA: $62,000

The only questions are: A. how elitist? and B, how much do you care?

Seriously, if somebody doesn’t want to go to an elitist college, they should not apply to a private college with an annual cost of attendance that is equal to the entire family income of a middle class family. So either actually consider a college that is truly not elitist, or forget about that as a criterion.

@PtonGrad2000 Saying that Princeton isn’t elitist because it has 25% low income kids is disingenuous at best, dishonest at worst, when you include people who are making more than 60% of the population as “lower income”. Saying that Princeton isn’t elitist because 60% receive FA is even more dishonest, since families which make $250,000 a year are still getting FA to the amount of 43% of their tuition.

You really do not get more elitist than thinking that a middle class family is “lower income”, and that a family in the top 20% by income requires financial aid…

I personally do not care - Princeton is an excellent university, and an excellent choice. But would Princeton students, parents, and alumni stop pretending that it isn’t elitist, just because It’s Not As Elitist As Some Other Colleges (with side glances at Harvard and Yale)?

14

There’s a world of difference between being “elite” and “elitist” and having “privilege” and “privileged.” My son is surrounded by many who are better in SES terms, but he hasn’t encountered anyone with elitist attitudes and privileged behavior at Princeton.

15

When one looks at or judges choice in tiers of elite-ness like we do with colleges to the nth degree, and chooses said college based on its “elite-ness” - that is, in and of itself, elitist. Not mean spirited or an evil doer. Not even wrong. But it is in fact elitist.

And I suggest Princeton tonthe op.

16

“he hasn’t encountered anyone with elitist attitudes and privileged behavior at Princeton.”

I don’t really understand how Princeton still has the eating club system. Is it really completely non-elitist and non-privileged? I thought many of them were open to all by lottery but a few still had some vestiges of privilege and elitist attitude. I still think Princeton is probably the best choice for OP, but isn’t it better to go in understanding whatever the reality is and not thinking that there are no elitist attitudes or privileged behavior? But if those attitudes are now gone from every Eating Club, that’s terrific and kudos to Princeton!

It’s easy to ignore elitist attitudes and privileged behavior at any college, which is why I think Princeton is likely the best choice for OP. But if there are more of those attitudes at Princeton than Rice, it’s good to know going in. If there isn’t, that’s great.

17

We toured Princeton last year and there were still eating clubs not open to all/lottery.

Princeton would be my choice here.

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The upperclassmen at Princeton has a choice to continue to dine at a residential college or join an Eating Club, not all of them through bickering. In other words, students have a choice. As far as I know, the Eating Clubs at Princeton has come a long way from its elitist founding. I think my son hasn’t encountered (yet) anyone with elitist attitudes and privileged behavior is most likely due to the fact that he tends to hang with those with similar SES backgrounds. My post was in response to the OP’s mother being scared by her perception that Princeton might be “elitist and full of privilege that wouldn’t necessarily be found at Duke or Rice.” I don’t think whatever the definition of elitism is extent at Princeton in relation to the other two such that it’s a real problematic issue to the OP and his/her mom. In fact, I’d actually like to see my son experience elitism and privilege as played out in real life as a good learning experience.

19

I’d choose Princeton TBH, but this depends on your personal attachment to Rice. (If you’re motivated by a fear of the unknown more than by affection for Rice, try to overcome it.)

Have you visited Princeton?

20

@Ghostt I’m actually flying out to Princeton for Princeton Preview tomorrow afternoon! It will be nice to finally experience it in person.