Funny you should mention disruptions. One kid had to take an AP exam with a listening component on a day that school was in session. At that time, the principal of the school was a gym teacher who, having the correct anatomy and background, had been promoted to principal. He had a habit of making frequent, deafening announcements during school (and during parent’s night) over the PA system, thus interfering with anything that was going on. He chose to make some ‘don’t forget to stop by the table outside the lunchroom and buy your ---- booster tickets’ announcements during the listening section of kid’s AP exam. All they could do was respond, in the target language, I’m sorry, I couldn’t hear what you said, could you please repeat yourself? Kid, who was fluent even to the point of taking a master’s level class for credit (got an A) at the nearby university in that language, conducted in that language, with papers written in that language, wound up with a 4 because of that. So yes, it’s very important that if the school is in session during the exams, that the office be notified not to make PA announcements, or hold emergency drills, during the exams!
One of mine was a published author also - the sole author of an original research paper. It does happen occasionally.
I think the value of the writing section (SAT or ACT) wasn’t the score but the essay itself that could serve to at least validate the authenticity of an applicant’s writing style.
The problem was, it was kind of like validating the style of a writer by asking those (in the know) to jump through the hoops for a check the box, formulaic essay five paragraph essay.
The college application process should be something that a high school student can navigate on their own because there are plenty of high school students who don’t have parents with the bandwidth to help.
I don’t know that this is possible because no one can know what they aren’t exposed to. The parents without bandwidth probably don’t have much bandwidth for their kids either. Sure, a kid could probably find an application to X school, but how can they know what other things might be important if they don’t have someone to guide them?
The best solution would be for every kid to have a decent guidance counselor - whether that’s at school, in a community group, or from parents at home. Someone who knows what they are doing can point kids in a good direction and discuss pros/cons with them. I know at our school they even provide visits to nearby colleges many kids can get accepted to.
At the very least, our local CC is used to helping both kids and adults navigate their system, but it’s far easier to do when your clientele is local and non competitive than when there are limited seats and you want to draw from a good number of the 50 states + abroad.
The college application process is something a high school student can navigate on their own. There are literally hundreds, if not thousands, of schools that don’t require “parents with bandwidth to help” which students can choose to apply to.
I did it over 30 years ago when you had to send away for applications, and handwrite or type out each separate application, as well as gather all the supplementary materials. I applied to 3 schools of varying levels of selectivity - 25%, 40% and 66%. Was accepted to 2 of them, waitlisted at the 3rd. Picked the best financial aid package I was given.
The issue that comes up every year is students (and families) picking a group of schools that do require more information and bandwidth than they might understand. They are picking those schools for many reasons (mostly name recognition/prestige)…but this conversation always is about the same highly rejective institutions.
The admission rates to these schools are not hidden or unknown. I don’t even think most of the applicants would say they didn’t know admission to the schools was highly selective. They just thought there wasn’t any way that they could be part of the 80-97 applicants rejected out of every 100.
That’s not a bandwidth issue, it is not a college application issue. And I don’t know how to fix that issue because the cognitive dissonance on display is breathtaking.
Your guidance counselor did nothing?
ETA - even over 30 years ago when I graduated my guidance counselor gave me advice about schools - and that I could go ROTC, etc. There’s no way I’d have known as much on my own.
We moved between my junior and senior year of high school. I had to coordinate my old guidance counselor sending letters of rec to the schools I applied to and my new one was completely unhelpful. Really wretched.
I did all the research in those huge paperback College List books. Thankfully, they were available in both the old library where we lived and the new library. Went through those books, took the admission addresses down and sent away for materials.
I definitely think having a good guidance counselor is more helpful, or at least, it certainly was for me. I’d have never found ROTC without a suggestion and it paid for my college. Even with it, some schools have (or maybe had?) ROTC, but not directly so it would have been a hassle compared to those that have them on campus. He showed me what to look for and suggested some schools, etc. The one I eventually chose was suggested to me by an AF interviewer for the scholarship, so I guess in that aspect I didn’t need the guidance counselor, but I’d have never gotten that far without him.
@nat1969 I’m curious how this happened, if you have any more info you’re willing to share. Pivoting in the short time between when you get the ED decision and the RD deadline is impressive as you point out. Is within the school her high schools or the colleges she applied to?
I recall doing it all myself, over 40 yrs ago. Got from the library the two college planning books I used. Wrote requests for the applications myself. Filled them out myself. Asked for the letters of recommendation myself. Asked for the transcripts myself. The guidance counselor, a dried up old Daughter of the American Revolution biddy, met with me one time, to point out that I hadn’t really applied to any safety school, which she was absolutely right about, and I blithely pointed out to her that my two match schools together constituted a safety (I was so stupid, and obnoxious, to boot). I was lucky that I got into both of those match schools. I chose my schools based upon the stats and vibe as described in the books and by word of mouth; didn’t visit a single school before I got the acceptances, then visited only the acceptances.
It was just SO different back then. Nowadays, a student as lazy as I had been, National Merit and only top 25% of a good small private day school, would never have gotten into an Ivy. I didn’t set up those expectations for my kids. I would have been totally satisfied for them to have simply gotten into our good flagship state U, hopefully with a small honors scholarship. I don’t think that my one who went Ivy would have been able to navigate the process without parental assistance - the achievements that got them in were all their own, but the opportunities that allowed such achievements, plus the crafting of the application, the advising regarding how to choose which standardized test to study for, and the prep for the interview - that required adult input. I think that a highly motivated kid with tons of time to do the research and make the connections could have done it, but that wouldn’t have left any time over for the concrete achievements that were also necessary as the raw building blocks of the application.
My guidance counselor sent my transcripts. Also, at a certain point, the guidance counselor suggested a scholarship application for me. But I don’t recall any meeting with seniors as a group or with me individually about the college search process, funding, etc. Thankfully, I was extremely well aware about the whole college process having been reading college guidebooks and reaching out to colleges for many, many years already. My parents wrote the checks for my college applications, and that was about all the assistance they provided with the application process (though they did have us visit some colleges when we were traveling).
So someone with an intrinsic interest in college searches might be able to navigate the process easily enough on their own, but for the vast majority of individuals, I think someone familiar with the guidance process would be needed.
I feel like I’m preaching to the choir on here, but there is so much privilege on here and lack of understanding about what happens in the vast amount of households in the country. Many kids don’t know or have the information to advocate for themselves. They have no parent helping or guiding. It’s not as simple as “well a kid can just figure it out”.
I grew up in a divorced, dysfunctional family with a mom that worked 2 jobs. I applied to a college with no information and got a full ride. When it came down to understanding the specifics of grants, work study, moving hours away without a car, being away from home for the first time… I had no one to help. My guidance counselor was worthless. I went to school with mostly kids on a trades path. Ultimately I allowed that offer to expire because I didn’t know how to proceed and it seemed impossible.
Stop assuming all kids live in a nuclear home with educated parents without any trauma, hardship or emotional damage. That’s not the real world. The viewpoints on here are myopic to put it mildly.
As I read the OP’s post, it is heartbreaking, but it all the more strengthens my opinion that a parent’s most important role is to push against their kids spending all their time researching and choosing which reach/super-reach schools to apply to. The effort should be flipped, I believe.
A great deal of time should be spent finding safeties and (realistic!) match schools that the student would enjoy life at, and can get them where they need to go, in a way that is affordable for their family. And much less effort should be spent on the reaches/super-reaches, in most cases.
As parents I think our job is to help find those hidden gyms, and get the kids excited about them. And convince them not to worry about if people on the street have heard of a college.
How did you know how/when to take the PSAT and SAT?
I’m glad some of you did it, but back in my day I would never have known what the PSAT was if it weren’t for my school assisting us.
It’s still the same today with kids at school. They only know about things themselves if a friend or family member knows about it enough to coach them. Even now, on PSAT testing day some juniors ask, “What’s going on?” because they didn’t pay attention to all the announcements talking about it. Fortunately, our guidance office makes sure any who could be in contention for National Merit know about it in time to sign up, but then again, that’s getting help from guidance (and/or teachers). They don’t know about it on their own.
The ACT is required for all public school students in North Carolina. Doesn’t matter if they plan to go to college or not.
I think PSAT 10 might be required or the preACT, but not the PSAT.
I think you are vastly underestimating the coping and initiative of many kids. As it was 30, 40,50 years ago, kids that are raised in dysfunctional families and who do well in school often have navigated tougher things than college apps with the common form. Kids used to do FAFSA, themselves. Many still do.
The idea that there has ever been/will ever be a level playing field is not valid. Some kids grow up in loving homes and need to navigate learning disabilities, cancer, parental death and so much more. We can’t place kids in a box because they’ll need to learn the skills needed to succeed in life. Whether they learn them at home or in college doesn’t matter. There are many kids from high income homes with stable families who never end up doing a thing. And there are kids who grew up with little to nothing who soar.
The bigotry of low expectations is far worse than the person who believes that kids despite rough times can do anything they want and be anyone they need to be. I believe that EVERY kid at 18 has a shot. Life is filled with obstacles. Telling kids that they can’t jump over them or that someone else has less, is useless energy, IMO.
I believe that every kid at age 4 or 5 has a shot. But by 18? It takes an extraordinary person to overcome an entire childhood of no resources or neglect/abuse. I think it is laudable that the colleges are trying to improve FGLI & HUG lives, but I think the real game changer starts much, much earlier.
I’m not sure if your post was supposed to be directed at me personally @Carina_M. If it wasn’t, then please disregard the following (which I have stated before on this site).
I was a little surprised to see a post which seemed to suggest I “lived up in a stable nuclear family with no hardship, trauma or emotional damage”. My own memories seem to contradict that indictment.
I, too, was raised by a single, divorced mother who was always working more than one job. At different times during my childhood, we were on welfare and lived in neighborhoods where the police weren’t unknown nor unseen, but not very often welcome. One of my earliest memories was the police going door to door in our apartment complex attempting to interview people in response to the murder literally across the way from us (man murdered his estranged wife by beating her to death, police rightly assumed people must have heard something and wondered why no one wanted to talk. Might have been the man himself standing outside watching the police do their rounds).
When it came time for me to consider college, my mother bluntly told me that if I wanted to go, the running had to be done by me. She simply didn’t have the time or energy to help…and she was also clear that there could be no monetary help coming from her either. She couldn’t give what she didn’t have.
I managed to figure out how to send some college applications out. Was it easy? No. Did I, too, work multiple jobs? Yes. Did I start working as soon as I could get working papers (14 if your grades were high enough)? Yes. Did I pick my college based entirely on the money? Yes. Did I pick my dorm entirely on which ones allowed students to stay over break because there was no money for me to go home? Yes. Did I have to get special permission to work more than 28 hrs a week on campus because it was the only way to make enough money while going to school full time? Yes. Was I exhausted and stressed about money every minute of every day of my four years of college (and quite a few years beyond)? Yes.
But this isn’t what this thread, or most of the other threads on the “ridiculous reject train rides” are actually about. We aren’t talking about under-resourced children not being able to attend any college, we are talking about well resourced, highly attractive college candidates who got rejected by highly selective colleges and who are unhappy with their safety choices.
And just for the record, while you and I could probably trade stories of hardship, trauma and emotional damage back and forth all day - I am also sure that well-resourced, nuclear families have their fair share of all those things as well. They usually just are able to keep that behind their closed doors, their large yards and with much less police interference.