Well, if you give up after 5 then you’ve consigned everyone to diminished expectations. What makes you optimistic until 5 though? I’d love to know why it changes post 5. And how does it change?
I don’t think anyone is saying people should not help disadvantaged youth, it’s just the idea of thinking that no one who is disadvantaged can make it that infuriates me. I know so many who came from a place that wasn’t ideal and have been phenomenally successful. None of them though rely on the idea that others had more so they couldn’t do as much.
At that time, and I believe still today, most schools in the country handed out registration forms in school for the students to take the PSAT and SAT or ACT at their schools. I had to figure out (for myself) how to take it on an alternate day for each of them, but I managed. Perhaps there were places in the US 40 yrs ago where it was not automatic for high school students to be offered by their schools the opportunity to take standardized tests, but if so, I didn’t live in one of them. But I’m sure you can find the cult commune exception to the rule.
The point that I was trying to make was that 40 yrs ago, this was a process commonly handled by kids themselves, at all socioeconomic levels. Maybe not for goof off children of the wealthy who were being gotten in via influence, but that wasn’t so common back then. Nowadays, it’s a different story. Hence the rise of the professional college admissions advisor, the interventionist parent(s), and both. There are not that many kids, even those with hooks, who can do it entirely on their own.
I vividly remember a kid asking me why I wasn’t there after the Saturday PSAT at my school and I did not have the slightest idea about national merit or other programs. My school did not publicize or or even offer information about it. I’d taken the SAT for an enrichment program in middle school so thought the PSAT was just a wasted Saturday in high school. People have absolutely no idea just how different experiences are for kids in economically challenged areas. My “counselors” were worried about how many kids were dropping out. They had zero bandwidth for kids going to college.
FWIW, I haven’t seen anyone at all say this or even imply it.
But the numbers of those who make it and those who don’t vary considerably. Those who get some help along the way (generally advice) rather than being tossed into the water with the sink or swim mantra tend to do a lot better IME.
I wish everyone could work in an average public high school for a few years. The lessons one can see from real life outside of one’s bubble (any bubble) is eye opening.
The idea of privilege always supposes that the disadvantaged are at a loss. Many are hyper-successful. And not only in the money sense. A kid who comes from a divorced family can have a long and successful marriage. So, there’s nothing written in stone that any kid is going to follow a certain path based on some notion that no one can refute because it’s become a siren call in certain circles. LOL.
You echo this idea,
And many more are not successful. That’s my point. You point to the rare success who bootstrapped it (and honestly, even those usually had someone in their corner cheering them on or helping). I’m pointing to the masses who tend to do better when they get help.
But yes a kid from a divorced family - even with a bad divorce - can have a long and successful marriage. H and I are at 33+ years right now.
That has nothing at all to do with having some sort of 6th sense to know what to do to go to college or make something of oneself all on their own with no one offering advice, money, or assistance along the way, esp just because they came from hardship.
It can happen, but there are better ways to see it happen more often.
We’ll agree to disagree on the basic premise. I believe people can live great lives including going to college even if they are born without. I also don’t think it’s rare.
No one said that either. I’m sure everyone on CC would agree that success is easier and more common with someone in their corner. Either you don’t understand the notion of bigotry of low expectations or you missed the point entirely.
I’m not going to comment further as you continue to bring in various ideas that were never said by me/
My guidance counselor did nothing. My parents did nothing, not out of any neglect on their part they had all As and went to the school closest to them because they could not afford to board anywhere so all choices had to be driving distance. Fairly easy in Chicago. I managed when we had to type them ourselves as well as send away for them. This is a breeze for students now!
The simple truth is that most kids do best with good help ( I do think that some help is not at all helpful). Most kids have some level of help. Some have none. Not sure how that ever changes.
Maybe… it depends on the college(s). Note that while some state universities’ applications do not require high school support (transcripts on application or recommendations), some other state universities’ applications do. A student in a state with required recommendations for state universities but in a school with overburdened counselors who cannot be counted on for anything would be at a disadvantage here. States where state universities each have their own different applications add to the complications.
Of course, doing financial aid forms or getting application fee waivers requires cooperation from parents regarding the financial information. A student with uncooperative parents may get neither the application fee paid for nor a fee waiver form completed, preventing completion of the application.
i want to say she must have hired a good outside CC (def not the kind of advice our school would dish out)…and possibly during the wait time to hear from her ED schools she realized how many other people applied to various ivy/t30 EDs in the class and decided to tweak her strategy (maybe pivot is too strong) - but she def had received guidance that she was one of many exceptional candidates in the class aiming for t30 and she would be more successful/more options if she just looked in a different level and size school.
Or maybe she wanted to only do ED to reach and RD to more low reach schools - usually Colgate, Bowdoin, Haverford are not on many radars for our school due to their remote locations
People who come from hard places do have fewer opportunities and more barriers to contend with. This does not mean that it is impossible for them to succeed, but, given the same ability and motivation as those starting from average or high opportunity (and average or low barrier) situations, fewer will succeed than those from less disadvantaged starting points.
If the initial starting point in terms of opportunities and barriers does not matter, why do many parents do all they can to improve opportunities and limit barriers for their kids (e.g. moving to “good” public school areas, sending their kids to private schools when the public schools do not meet their definition of “good”, paying for college)?
Yes, you are right, if guidance counselors don’t send out transcripts or letters of rec - the student will most likely hit a stopping point during the college application process. Is this a common issue? And if the guidance counselors are failing at their job that completely, that seems less a problem with the college application process and more a structural problem at the high school that would make it difficult to complete any process - not just college applications.
As for students with completely uncooperative parents who refuse to do financial aid forms, again that is a problem (and probably more common than your first example)…but not with the college admission process. That is a family problem, and one for which there may not be a good solution until the student can afford to pay for college themselves (perhaps at a CC) or is old enough to be considered an independent student. If that is the issue, again it isn’t with the college application process but with the familial structure and relationships.
There are indeed lots of barriers students can face in trying to get a college education/degree. I don’t remember anyone arguing that some students don’t face greater barriers than others. And those barriers may well prevent them from what might be seen as the optimal approach to getting an education. Those issues don’t start with college applications, and it isn’t the college application process that creates the barriers most people are talking about here.
Even with CarinaM’s personal example - she was able to navigate the application process with little to no help and get accepted to a college with a full ride. The problem came with her trying to figure out how to make that offer work. She figured out the application process, the college gave her a full ride - the issue she had wasn’t the college process - it was the larger structural issues she faced that the college process wasn’t made for or equipped to handle.
Every study done on economic and social mobility indicates the exact opposite of what you are saying. The chance that a child born into poverty will escape it is very low. Many people don’t like to hear that because it flies in the face of the “up by your bootstraps” mythos that is pervasive in our country.
Well, relying on the mythos of privilege is certain to keep the poor victimized.
Where exactly did I say anything about up from the bootstraps? As I’ve said previously, I never mentioned bootstraps but someone else did and now you are. You are reading into the thread and putting words in my mouth which is also typical of those who rely on the same tired ideas framed and reiterated without really giving thought about personal responsibility or other factors (like hard work, skills and luck).
My issue is entirely with the idea that everyone who is “privileged” is going to end up ahead of everyone who is born poor. Not the case. But I’ve heard these arguments and they are often in an echo zone so please continue along without me.
So you just want to pretend that this isn’t a reality, and that the kid born on 3rd base hit a triple? What’s wrong with acknowledging that factors beyond our control play a role in opportunities and even outcomes? That’s the way the world works.
Speaking of echo chambers . . . this isn’t a real “idea.”
