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<p>What about it? I would guess that the Chapel Hill name doesn’t go too far across the Pond. Prestige is just a much, much bigger need internationaly. </p>
<p>OTOH, if your goal is Harvard Law, then any US undergrad college will be fine, and long as your earn nearly all A’s. (The Harvard degree is plenty of prestige for international work.)</p>
<p>Of course there’s no guarantee that you’d get into Harvard Law. That said generally the last degree earned will trump the others. (I did get an architecture job in Germany more because of my undergrad at Harvard, rather than my architecture schooling at Columbia.)</p>
<p>My response is partly directed toward some comments on the thread in the Princeton forum, but I wanted to post in just one place and my comments are not about Princeton.</p>
<p>UNC and Duke are only a few miles apart, and the Robertson bus between them is convenient and frequent and open to all students. You can’t go wrong academically, although individual majors may be somewhat stronger at one school than the other. The Robertson scholarship, whether through UNC or Duke, would be a great opportunity to experience both campuses and towns. Duke has more diversity by geography, drawing most of its students from out of state (a large number from the Northeast and California), but there is less economic diversity. Overall, students at Duke are from high income families, but Durham itself is much less affluent than Chapel Hill. Durham was a tobacco factory town and still has a blue-collar feel. The downtown has been revitalized and has a wonderful new performing arts center that has drawn some terrific concerts, plays, and other shows. UNC does not have as much geographic diversity, because around 82% of students are from North Carolina; however, there is more economic diversity. Chapel Hill is the quintessential lovely college town, with a very progressive population, good public transportation (for the United States!), and a nice diversity of places to eat. There is a very laid-back, friendly vibe in town and on campus.</p>
<p>You had questions about Greek life. Duke is very Greek-oriented, with around a third of students involved. UNC’s percentage is about half that, and the fraternities are off campus (although most are right next to it). Fraternities are present, but they are not predominant. Here’s an article (written by a Duke student, I think) about Greek life on both campuses: <a href=“http://www.dukechronicle.com/articles/2008/02/25/unc-scene-less-greek-powered”>http://www.dukechronicle.com/articles/2008/02/25/unc-scene-less-greek-powered</a></p>
<p>A poster on the Princeton thread listed the numbers of top scholars/fellows Duke has produced. UNC has also produced a good number of winners of prestigious scholarships: 48 Rhodes Scholars, 16 Marshall Scholars, 42 Goldwater Scholars, 3 Mitchell Scholars, 15 Churchill Scholars, 114 Fulbright grant recipients in the last decade, and 36 Luce Scholars.</p>
<p>The Robertson Scholarship was created in 2000, so it is not as well-known as the Morehead-Cain Scholarship, one of the top college scholarship programs in the country. Although UNC does not have the same amount of name recognition overseas as Princeton, the Morehead-Cain program has a special nominating process for students in the United Kingdom. Because of this, UNC is well-known among academic circles in the UK (<a href=“http://moreheadcain.org/apply/british_nominating_schools”>http://moreheadcain.org/apply/british_nominating_schools</a> ).</p>
<p>The good part of this is that your choices thus far are excellent. Congratulations! The hard part is that you already have a difficult decision, which will get more difficult if you get an acceptance from Duke.</p>
<p>Thanks for your help everyone</p>
<p>For anyone looking at this in the future, I decided to go to Princeton for the following reasons</p>
<p>(Disclaimer, all three are amazing institutions, I’m so honored to have been accepted and I will echo what so many people have told me - you can’t go wrong. Go wherever you feel is best for you/suits your needs (but be thoughtful about this…)</p>
<ol>
<li>Finances are a priority. Financially they were the same deal, Princeton might even be better. Has amazing aid and funds hundreds of opportunities including the Bridge Year, internships, domestic service opportunities, research (think senior thesis). Also (/because) has the biggest per capita endowment in the world. I think I can get whatever opportunities the scholarship would have given me at Princeton (I read something from Malcolm Gladwell that said it doesn’t matter <em>where</em> you go, it matters that you got in) = so essentially, you’re going to do well wherever. Perhaps I won’t, but I think I’m going to push myself more at Princeton</li>
</ol>
<p>It then buckles down to which school you feel more comfortable at. I was at the disadvantage of not having visited NC, if you have the chance to - go</p>
<ol>
<li>I prefer the Princeton vibe, it seems more liberal, ‘close knit’ and academic (like a LAC). School spirit/basketball is great - but I think it takes away from other aspects of college life. Duke/UNC are Southern and I definitely noticed some ‘mean’ (/conservative lol) comments on the Duke Facebook page. In addition to that there are some social issues like the Duke porn star, rape scandals etc. that give me the impression Duke still has a lot of things to work on. I think UNC is slightly different but it’s a difficult topic.</li>
</ol>
<p>Please reach out if you want to discuss your own choices/chat, I’d be delighted to help.</p>
<p>How impressive is it for CC readers to have such detailed information provided by Katwkittens. A real treasure. </p>
<p>As far as the OP’s questions, I think a lightbulb will go on, and the choice will become clear. If it were up to me, it would be … Go Tigers! And this for its great attention to its undergraduates. No school will ever be perfect --think eating clubs for instance-- but Princeton is as good as it gets. And, the other choices come with the cancer of an active Greek presence that affects mostly the undergraduate years. Of course, my comments exemplify how subjective an appraisal really is. What would turn me off BIG time might be a major attraction for others. And then there are intangibles that are hard to explain such as having a soft spot for UNC and disliking about everything related to Duke and the Dookies. 
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<p>@xiggi That’s precisely it!</p>
<p>Greek Life (or the lack of at Princeton) had a big influence on my decision. I know it’s a polemic topic but I’m reaaaalllllyyy not a big fan.</p>
<p>If I could go back and repeat this deciding process, I would have found out as much as I could BEFORE I applied (make sure these places are a reasonable fit for my academic goals/I can ‘cope with their downfalls’), then decide based on a gut instinct when decisions come out.</p>
<p>Haha, this should teach me to read the last posts before starting to type. By the time I finished my post, Nireh had shared the decision. Obviously, I happen to think it is a good one, but then again, how wrong could the others have been! </p>
<p>How exciting it must be! </p>
<p>i’m happy for the OP. His decision seems sound,based on solid criteria. My son did not chose P-ton, but I’m sure I would have been happy if he had. His close friend had an amazing 4 years there.</p>
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<p>I’m not sure Duke/UNC are necessarily more conservative than P-ton…especially Duke considering most students aren’t from the south. </p>
<p>Granted, Princeton had a much more of a privileged and politically conservative student body when I was in HS in the '90s…which has since changed. Despite this change, my HS classmates and I still enjoy ribbing our Princeton alum classmates/relatives/friends/colleagues. :)</p>
<p>However, both Duke & UNC have much more of a big sports/school spirit and fraternity/sorority vibe which isn’t for everyone. </p>
<p>UNC does have a slightly more conservative vibe…but even it only goes so far. One of my friends’ best professors in a STEM field who is a progressive lefty politically got his PhD from UNC whereas some HS classmates who went there for undergrad ranged from progressively lefty to Ayn Rand libertarians. </p>
<p>cobrat – You have it backwards. Duke, which has a large percentage of students from outside the South, is more politically conservative than UNC. UNC, with around 82% North Carolina students, is overall very liberal. Still, there are students and professors from all across the political spectrum at both universities. Both have big sports, but Duke is much more heavily Greek – 32% as opposed to 17% at UNC, the latest stats I’ve seen.</p>
<p>OP – Best wishes as you get ready to go to Princeton! It must be a relief to have that difficult decision behind you.</p>
<p>And by “more politically conservative,” we mean “actually has visible student Republicans.” Let’s not get carried away about this. </p>
<p>And, congrats to the OP. Great choices lead to fun “problems” to solve. </p>
<p>Go TIGERS!! So glad you have made a decision, now you you can jump right into all your new choices, courses, ECs, bridges, and maybe roomies? When you get to campus make an appt with your financial aid “counselor/go to person” and thank them for making your new adventure possible. They are a small group and would appreciate the feedback. They will be the person you will work with throughout your years there, including summers. They also provide sound personal financial advice for grad school and beyond. If for some reason you need something beyond what is provided do not hesitate to contact them, reach out to them. They helped son out with tuition at other schools that offered courses they did not (anatomy and physiology w anatomy lab), study abroad opportunities, laptop, travel/new wardrobe, student summer contribution waiver, thesis binding fees, graduation fees…</p>
<p>Just stay in touch with them and they will help. As far as work study there are plenty of opportunities besides the library, food service and alumni services. The athletic teams need help, the art and drama departments, the museums, research teams for senior thesis and junior papers, tour groups…the list is huge. And can provide some real life work experience with some possible LORs you might need later from non-academic references. </p>
<p>You don’t need to declare a major right away so enjoy! Son took classes from professors he truly admired not in his field of study at all. The recommended course load is 4 but son managed to fit in six. I would not recommend doing this if you are in any way trying to protect your GPA (think pre-med, son was pre-med but he is CRAZY) for grad school or an outside scholie. Also the outside scholie will be applied to your account first taking away your work study and then summer contribution. Extras can be applied to “other misc” costs. You’ll see.</p>
<p>Don’t become discouraged when you realize you are no longer the smartest person around. Instead relish and cherish it. The pressure is off, absorb and learn all you can from those around you, a real joy in life. Take the time to enjoy the people around you, these 4 years are truly a gift.</p>
<p>Contact me when the time comes for the eating clubs. Son’s journey was unique and he enjoyed the very best p’ton clubs had to offer. Executive officers are granted privileges not given to others, this includes all the clubs including the sign-in non-bicker ones. Those on FA will be given funds to pay the dues so no hardship to you. In addition to the clubs’ funds.</p>
<p>And p-rades are the best! CONGRATS!</p>
<p>Kat
for others with similiar choices I think had he also chosen the UNC/Duke scholie he would enjoy that as well, resulting in a fantastic education. Son is loving UNC for very different reasons than he enjoyed at p’ton. He knew there was no med school at p’ton when there is one at UNC and Duke along with b-schools.</p>
<p>And thank you xiggi!</p>
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<p>Humm, Cobrat, were there many of your classmates at Stuyvesant who survived the final cut of a certain Fred Hargadon. Yes, the Fred Hargadon who passed away a few months ago, and had gained an incredible notoriety for vastly ignoring the graduates of Stuyvesant and for NOT considering them Princeton material? </p>
<p>I might be wrong but I believe that Dean Fred ruled Princeton’s admissions from 1988 to 2003, and remained steadfast in his preferences of well-balanced mathletes over people who only shined in the classroom. In simpler terms, Hargadon added his comments on the admission letter of plenty of graduates from Thomas Jefferson High School in Virginia but very few Stuy grads! How lucky you are to have known all or most of them enough to test their patience! </p>
<p>Sadly enough, given the multitude of examples in your past posts, this appears to be one more case where one finds many reasons to doubt your account of “ribbing Princeton alum classmates/relatives/friends/colleagues.”</p>
<p>Sadly! </p>
<p>xiggi,</p>
<p>A lot of that ribbing is a mix of playful teasing among friends and ways of satirizing Princeton’s past admission policies which heavily favored legacies and athletes. </p>
<p>It would be humorous for them to claim serious injury from it considering many P-ton alums I’ve met had no trouble ribbing me or others for the colleges we’ve attended. :)</p>
<p>Hey…if someone wants to dish out some ribbing…they’ve got to be willing to take the same in return. :)</p>
<p>Cobrat, with all due respect, this is not about the definition of “ribbing” playfully. It is more about your claims of having friends or family in about every situation presented on College Confidential. And enough knowledge of what they think or did to think that their actions or thoughts are relevant to discussions here. </p>
<p>So glad I was able to “like” the post from 2:27. Which is right above this one! God I wish there were post numbers.</p>
<p>Nobody cares about the acquaintances of anyone’s friends or cousins, or whatever.</p>
<p>Congratulations to the OP. You had wonderful choices, all of which would have been fabulous. Princeton is a great place. </p>
<p>
Although I agree that Princeton is a great place, I actually discouraged DS to apply there because of what I heard about Fred Hargadon’s iron wrist admission policy when DS was in high school.</p>
<p>The track record of several classes before DS’s high school class gave me this bias. The ratio of the students who had been admitted to P vs H (or Y or S) in these 5 years was likely 1 to 6. DS’s high school was not capable of producing “Princeton types” back in those years. I think there is only a single female student who got accepted there in those several years. She’s neither particularly athletic nor particularly great in any EC, comparing to other competitive students in her class or in many other classes. She is neither URM nor one of the ORMs. But her last name would not give her any disadvantage. Many students/families speculated that if the ethnic groups of her father and her mother were swapped, she might have got into other top colleges instead of P.</p>
<p>But I think P has “improved” in this area after Fred was no longer in charge.</p>
<p>The legacy of Fred Hargadon will take as much time to be clearly evaluated as the legacy of our past five POTUS. His fifteen years at Stanford and Princeton brought incredible AND positive changes to both schools. In particular, the efforts to demystify the process for the benefit of outsiders brought the need for transparency to light. A need that is still far from being understood in many places. Princeton can thank him for having made the school a national and international powerhouse and reducing the power of the connected blue blood GC to close to zero. And recognize that some academic factories do not produce well-fitting candidates.</p>
<p>Here are a few of his words: " “One would gather from the mail we get each year that many people view the admission process either as totally mysterious or as easy and evident. In fact, it is neither. Instead, it is complicated and complex, and if it is to be done well, enormously time-consuming.”</p>
<p>And done well, he did! Including making the application process all about the applicant before and after admission. Admissions will never please everyone, and with 80 to 95 percent rejections, it is easy to understand why some disliked his positions. </p>
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<p>Considering what Hargadon considered “well-fitting candidates” were athletes and legacies as stated by some Princeton articles about his tenure, some skepticism about his yardstick and objectivity is justified.</p>
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<p>This factor is one reason why if a student at my HS or similar public magnets had a choice between P-ton or other peer Ivies/elite universities…they’d overwhelmingly chose the others. That and the overwhelming perception backed up by accounts of older classmates…especially URMs that P-ton’s campus culture wasn’t friendly towards public school kids, especially those from lower-SES backgrounds. </p>
<p>A perception which was almost the complete opposite of what I observed on Harvard’s campus from having taken classes and attending some academic events on campus. </p>
<p>Thankfully, I am glad Princeton is no longer this way…though I agree it may take a while before the impact of Hargadon’s legacy is erased. </p>
<p>^^^^^Interesting about p’ton. Especially since son was a URM, from a very, very low SES from a poor, rural public school.</p>
<p>Never did he feel excluded, in fact admin and faculty went out of their way to help him overcome obstacles that some might not forsee. Paid for travel to visit include monies for the dinky. Advanced him his financial aid package the previous summer so he could purchase his books, supplies, wardrobe and dorm furnishings. Purchase travel vouchers making it easier for flights. Later years, make sure eating club dues were taken care of in advance. Advice on graduate school financing, providing advice after he graduated. All done in private so no stigma was attached.</p>
<p>His friends, classmates and peers in no way made him feel bad about his lack of funds. And I would use the word understatement to describe some of those friends and their respective families as “wealthy” and influential. His older sister felt more pressure money-wise at an OOS public that had a much higher Pell grant student attendance, the difference maybe 65+% more.</p>
<p>Coming from a free and reduced lunch eligible family he knew very well how little he had. His fellow classmates did not know unless he told them, thanks to p’ton. He and I will be forever grateful of the life-changing opportunity he was granted. In many instances we didn’t know how much we didn’t know. He was offered study abroad at their expense and he turned it down, he knew he had only 4 years on campus and did not want to miss a minute.</p>
<p>He has managed to attend every re-union since his sophomore year and even now during his busy MS3 year of med school he will attend again. During his med school interview process there was a tiger alum to pick him up at every airport, train and bus depot and host him. They each provided in-depth analysis about he school so he could make an informed decision without needing a second look after acceptance. The alumni network has proved to be invaluable in his med school process and now his b-school acceptance and fellowship. Residency process to follow.</p>
<p>Son was also a D1 athlete at p’ton but only as a walk-on. He wanted to make academics his focus while applying. Although MIT and Chicago wanted him for their teams. Funny that he turned down harvard for the EXACT reasons you listed for p’ton since that is what he picked up from his visits there. They were none to happy when he turned them down for med school as well.</p>
<p>Obviously a very different experience then what others have posted. His GF, also a p’ton alum and URM had a very similar and positive experience.</p>
<p>Kat</p>