Rochester vs Hamilton vs CMU

Colleges and Universities A-Z University of Rochester
1

<p>Planning to study Political Science/IR,Math,Econ, or some combination of the three.</p>

<p>Not sure what future plans are, but graduate school of some kind is most likely in my future, whether immediately after or within 5 or so years.</p>

<p>I will take out the maximum stafford loans at Hamilton (27K over 4 years) and 19K at CMU.</p>

<p>I will take out 10K stafford loans at UR (total over 4 years)</p>

<p>The loan amounts vary based on finaid packages and a set level of family contribution.</p>

<p>CMU: probably the most highly regarded of the 4, at least in Econ/math. Accepted as a Econ major (in the college of humanities and social sciences, though I think its in cooperation with Tepper). This might change. I'd like to try to get into the Quantitative Social Science Scholars and I like the fact that they have a decisions science major;it sounds pretty interesting. </p>

<p>Worries: Not sure if I would fit in socially given everything I've heard/seen about it..From all that I can tell their polisci department is incredibly lacking. If I decide to take the finance route, I will probably get screwed over by all of the tepper business students.</p>

<p>Hamilton:
It seems fairly strong in all of the departments I am interested in.
I Like the rural atmosphere and small school vibe from the initial visit, but I am a bit worried I might get bored of the environment/small size after a while.... </p>

<p>Rochester:
Wasn't initially on my radar but its starting to grow alot on me. Fairly strong econ and polisci departments, don't know about math. The city is lacking but it seems like theres a lot going on campus and there's eastman nearby so I don't think I'm going to run out of things to do. Will its lack of prestige hold me back? Since its the lowest cost option, should I just take it and run?</p>

<p>How do the academics at all of these schools compare? Employment opportunities? Chances for going to a top graduate school? What about costs, how much should this come into play?</p>

2

<p>The math department at Rochester is very good. They have an honors level calculus sequence (one of three levels of calculus) that uses the Spivak textbook for Calc I & II and is proof based - a great sequence for real math-y students. The professors are great and very approachable. Students who are ready for it can take grad level math courses junior or senior year. </p>

<p>I’m not as knowledgeable about the econ department but I have spoken with a couple econ majors who feel they’re getting a great education and have had good opportunities and done some really interesting things.</p>

<p>The graduate poly sci department is very highly rated, and the undergrad department is well thought of too. The Rochester approach to poly sci will match your strengths because it empathizes a lot of quantifying and statistics as well as what I always thought poly sci was. </p>

<p>Rochester makes it very easy to double major - there’s lots of flexibility in the curriculum. It’s also very geared toward students getting as involved in research as much as they want to, in all majors - not just science.</p>

3

<p>To add to PinotNoir’s great response:
Econ and Polisci happen to be Rochester’s highest ranked non-hard-science departments, both generally considered in the top 20. Polisci is probably the better of the two, but only slightly. Econ at Rochester is ~ on par with Econ at CMU, while Rochester’s Polisci is leagues ahead. Rochester has a financial economics major in which you take a few classes from Simon, its graduate business school. Simon was recently ranked 5th in the world for Finance by The Financial Times.</p>

<p>There is no question that if you go to a random man on the street and ask to compare CMU and Rochester (especially if you leave the northeast), CMU will generally win. Fortunately, this situation has almost no relevance in what actually matters. Rochester is highly regarded in the academic community (e.g. grad schools). Employers generally care about academic reputation, so you probably won’t suffer there either. Hamilton is also highly regarded in the academic community, but probably suffers from the same lack of name-recognition that Rochester does.</p>

<p>To comment on Hamilton’s size: 450 students per class is small. Some people love this, others become frustrated by junior/senior year. I cannot comment specifically on Hamilton, but this lack of social opportunity at smaller isolated schools tends to create a social life that revolves around drinking. Rochester has a small school vibe but all the opportunities of a larger research university. There is a sense of community at Rochester that for whatever reason is lacking at many comparable universities.</p>

<p>Considering what your goals are, Rochester may be your best option, even ignoring costs. The Dean of admissions likes to apply the fish/pond analogy to choosing a school. I’m paraphrasing here, but being a big fish in a small pond is obviously not a good idea. However, being a small fish in a big pond (in other words, attending the best school you can possibly get accepted to) may also be a bad idea, since it would be very difficult to stand out and all the best opportunities would be taken by others. People seem to forget this, but only 10% of the class can be in the top 10% of the class. The Dean argues that being a mid-sized fish in a mid to larger sized pond is the best option.</p>

4

<p>If I were you, I honestly would go to CMU. You can transfer to Tepper if you maintain certain GPA. It is not that hard. But if you consider political sci as your future career seriously, it is better to go to Rochester. Considering what your goals are, I think Rochester may be your best option because Econ and Political Sci majors are Rochester’s highest ranked majors. Rochester has both liberal arts curriculum like Hamilton and opportunity of large research university like CMU. Have you heard of Rochester’s unique core curriculum system? It is awesome.</p>

5

<p>Far more important than a ranking - which has very little value for undergrad programs at quality schools - is where you want to go, where you fit as a person and what you can afford. I normally add “where they have your program” but that isn’t the case here because we’re not talking about marine biology or archaeology. I think rankings are largely garbage for undergrad. They matter at the grad level because your grad school affects your first job. That matters much more if you want to be in college level academics because first job in academia seem to matter more for a number of years.</p>

<p>CMU is over 2x the size of UR. Hamilton is almost 2/3 smaller than UR. Those are real differences. For example, my kid’s high school was larger than Hamilton. 11k students is much, much larger than 4.9k, which is much, much larger than 1.8k. Where do you want to be?</p>

<p>CMU is in Pittsburgh, while UR is in Rochester and Hamilton is kind of nowhere. I’d give the edge in location to CMU, but that’s personal. All 3 have nice campuses. You tend to spend most of your time on campus but it’s nice to have more outside school. Again, where do you want to be? </p>

<p>I’ve seen kids obsess over rankings of 5 places. Actually look into the rankings and you see they are essentially worthless non-measures. Rankings are also skewed by numerous lies & exaggerations - some uncovered if you look into it. Schools have been caught inflating the number of faculty in a department (sometimes by counting emeritus and people on leave) or ranking every other program as worse or lying about their graduation rate. Others have admitted they make up the salary figures and number of graduates with jobs - which others admit they can’t even track so they cherry pick their best numbers and use those.</p>

<p>BTW, UR places little emphasis on ratings generally, though of course they use them for marketing. They have a history of being minimally cooperative with the larger ratings like USNews. The admissions dean has been quite outspoken about this.</p>

6

<p>Same, if I were you, I would go to CMU for sure. However if you want to do a lot of research as an undergraduate in college, you should go to Rochester.
CMU is ranked higher than Rochester and THERE ARE reasons for that.
You should also visit their campus too!</p>

7

<p>I don’t want to go into rankings except to say I spent many hours taking them apart and getting into how they work, what they weight, etc. They are junk. I mean that in several ways: they use lousy metrics which are poorly related to what they purport to rank and their methodology is not statistically sound. They are useful only in the most general sense.</p>

8

<p>I usually don’t jump into the X vs. Y vs. Z threads but I want to make a point clear about Rochester that makes us distinctly different from about 98% of all the other colleges and universities out there… we have an Open Curriculum!</p>

<p>If you love Poli Sci / Math / and Econ, (or if you love Philosophy and Astronomy, or if you love Music and Biomedical Engineering, or if you love Creative Writing and History, or if you have multiple academic passions in general) then the University of Rochester is absolutely a place to consider attending because you can pursue your academic passions instantly, fall semester freshman year! </p>

<p>Here’s a breakdown of how the curriculum works, and please explore [University</a> of Rochester](<a href=“http://www.rochester.edu%5DUniversity”>http://www.rochester.edu) for more detailed information…</p>

<p>You have to complete a major in one of three areas: Engineering & the Natural Sciences, the Social Sciences, or Humanities. You then need to take 3-related courses (a “cluster”) in the other two areas outside of your academic major (Engineering majors actually only need 1 cluster in either the Social Sciences OR the Humanities). Choosing these “cluster” courses is entirely up to you. You won’t be forced to take anything that you don’t enjoy. Finally, every student at Rochester has to take 1 of our 65 different freshman writing courses, and you get to pick the topic that sounds the most interesting to you. This is the ONLY required course at the U of R, the rest is completely up to you!</p>

<p>A break down… (Take this for what it’s worth, an Academic Advisor at Rochester can really help you break down your potential majors / minors / etc. This is just for generic purposes.)</p>

<p>You will take approximately 32 classes during your college career (8/year times 4 years). 10-15 of these will be in your major (perhaps more for some engineering majors, hence why only 1 cluster instead of 2 is required). Let’s go on the high end of the spectrum because it will prove my point.</p>

<p>15 classes in your major + the 1 freshman writing requirement = 16 classes.</p>

<p>16 + 3 (one cluster) + 3 (the other cluster) = 22 classes required in order to fulfill Rochester’s degree requirement.</p>

<p>32 classes total - 22 classes = 10 remaining classes to DO WHATEVER YOU WANT WITH. This is what sets Rochester apart. At other schools these 10 classes are eaten up by General Education Requirements, which the University of Rochester does not have. You never have to take a class at Rochester to “get it out of the way”, instead you are choosing 32 classes that sound the most interesting / will be beneficial for you and your career goals out of the 1,000 courses that we offer each semester. Additionally, you will be surrounded by peers who actually want to be in that same classroom with you, and you will be taught by a professor who realizes that you also really want to be there! </p>

<p>Rochester’s students will put these 10 classes (and remember, the number 10 came out of this equation when I went on the high-end of the major spectrum [15 classes]) towards their current 3-course clusters, enabling them to build these clusters into minors or double/triple majors. Approximately 47% of UR students graduate with a double major. I’m not sure how this compares with other schools. If you decide to overload in any semester after fall semester freshman year, your options for completing various majors / minors multiply.</p>

<p>So, in conclusion, if you wanted to get a double major at the U of R you could do so without ever necessarily overloading in any semester, especially if you choose to get a second major outside of the same category (Natural Sciences / Social Sciences / Humanities).</p>

<p>This Open Curriculum is incredibly flexible and exciting, and I hope students with multiple academic passions realize that this curriculum is a rare gem. I can only think of a handful of universities that offer anything similar.</p>

<p>As a final point, the U of R also offers the incredibly rare Take-5 program, enabling any student to stay a 5th year tuition free to study anything outside of your academic major. I’m not sure how many (if any) other schools offer a program like this. </p>

<p>The University of Rochester’s open curriculum is student-driven and extremely flexible, something worth considering for any independently minded student! Please feel free to call the Admissions Office with any questions, I might have missed a detail or two about the curriculum. This curriculum is what sparked my initial interest in the U of R, and I’m sure that’s the case for most of the students here. </p>

<p>To address the OP, follow your heart. All of the schools you mentioned are fantastic and I’d bet you’d be very happy at any of them. Visit all three and go to the one that has your programs and gives you that positive “gut-feeling.” You want to spend 4 of the most influential years of your life in an environment that suits you, surrounded by peers with a similar academic drive, and at an institution that matches your capabilities.</p>

9

<p>Tyler, that’s exactly the point: you choose a school because of what it offers, not because of rankings. You choose it because it chooses you. </p>

<p>I’ve had this discussion on the law school board. If you want to go to a top tier law school, you need to score high on your LSAT. That’s the single biggest determinant, though some law schools are now reacting against that. Medical schools are starting to do this more. Kids from schools like Yale - where I went ages ago - tend to score higher on the SAT so they score higher on the LSAT so they get into top rated law schools. Parents and kids look at the admissions raw numbers and think, “You have to go to a top ‘prestige’ school to get into a top graduate program.” That’s nonsense. It’s a complete misreading of the data. You need to get good grades and score well on the admissions tests. You can do that at any reputable school. The advantage to ‘prestige’ schools is that you have to score well to get in and that bodes well for how you’ll score on grad school exams. People then take that and see causation from the school’s name when that’s false. </p>

<p>There is little actual data about how the choice of school affects your future. One study looked at kids admitted to schools of various prestige and who went to a lower prestige choice. Those kids earned as much some years later as the kids who went to the prestige school. </p>

<p>By far the largest determinant of how you’ll do in life is you. Period. </p>

<p>Putting that aside, there are two main factors. One is your occupation; no matter what school you attend, you will make what people in your field make. There are some huge differences, like being a big firm partner in a law firm in NYC is major dollars versus Louisville, KY, but when you adjust for cost of living and lifestyle expectations much of the difference goes away except for a relatively small group of outliers. As you read in the WSJ, you can make $500k in NYC and feel strapped because you’re paying a fortune for everything from private schools to nannies to a summer house and so on. </p>

<p>The other determinant is location. I’ve had this discussion with a number of people. Want to earn more? Live in the Northeast because that is where incomes are the highest. You can look at earnings levels - as iffy as the data is - from public universities around the country and you see they don’t track with ‘prestige’ but with the local area’s income levels.</p>

10

<p>After some serious thought, I’ll be heading to Rochester next year!</p>

11

<p>Hamilton has an open Curriculum too</p>

12

<p>WSJunkie // what major are you in?! see you soon haha</p>

13

<p>WSJunkie - Yay!!!</p>

14

<p>I wonder if there’s a list somewhere of schools with no or minimal distribution requirements. I know of a handful. Most are colleges. I can think of 3 universities: Brown, UR and Wesleyan. Brown, as I remember, only requires you take classes in your major while Wesleyan is more similar to UR.</p>

<p>As for colleges, besides Hamilton, I can think of Amherst, Smith, Hampshire - which are all next to each other in MA, so there’s a cluster - and a few others.</p>

15

<p>My D loves the open curriculum at UR; she will hopefully have 3 minors along with her major. She has also had such wonderful research opportunities which I do not feel she would have gotten had she been enrolled elsewhere. If you want to do research, UR is the school to attend.</p>