<p>From what I understand, your GPA little if your class rank does not correlate.</p>
<p>Our school does not rank, but it provides a scatterplot with GPA on Y axis and SAT score on X axis (similar to the plots on naviance) plotted for each student. All the college has to do it look at the dot (they circle the dot for the student in question) and it's pretty obvious where they are compared to the rest. It's kind of interesting to see how unrelated SATs and GPAs are (kid with #1 GPA and a 1200; kid with #10 GPA and 1600). I like the way they do it- there have been situations with grade grubbing kids who play the system (pick easier classes/teachers), and this way it helps those kids who took very difficult classes- they usually have lower GPAs but higher SATs.</p>
<p>Our high school stopped ranking for the first time last year. Very competitive getting into the state flagship university. High school reports that with the no ranking the acceptance rate from our high school went up several percent. Will be interesting to see if they get the same result this year.</p>
<p>Kids who attend a selective specialized HS may also take a big hit on rankings. Kids who would be a clear val at their home school may be barely top 10% at a specialized program, but doing far more difficult work than at the home HS. This will probably nail my younger son, as I think top 10% is going to be out of reach for him at the specialized program. He could sleep through class to the top 5% at the local HS, though.</p>
<p>It all has to be taken in context.</p>
<p>curious...</p>
<p>to answer your question about who is included in the top 10% stats colleges report: it really depends on the school. for example, at my school we only "enter" or record ranking in class if 1) it is given by the school on an official transcript, 2) if we are able to ascertain the percentile rank (top 10%, top 20%, etc...,) without question from official transcript and high school profile, 3) we are told by a student's counselor (documentation that the conversation happened is required in my office), or 4) it is mentioned somewhere else in the application by a school official. for example, if a school does not "officially" rank, students who are in the top 5 in the class (not percent, but top 5 students in the class) usually get that mentioned in recommendations by their counselors. SO, if we can ascertain rank in the aforementioned ways, we include it in our top 10% stat. in my office, we do really take the time to try and figure this out because we want to be as fair as possible to each student applying when evaluating their credentials; at the same time, we also want what we are publishing to be as accurate as possible for you, the public. thus, we do mention the number of students in the accepted group who we included in the stats number. this is our policy...you should ask other schools what they do. </p>
<p>epiphany...</p>
<p>having information about a shared ranking can really help us. here are two situations where it can be extremely important for us and the students: 1) if there are multiple valedictorians and 2) if the class is particularly large and there is a large number of students who share a rank. the first is usually the most important for us to know. for example, this year i read a high school where there were literally over 30 students "officially" valedictorian because the school ranks using unweighted gpa. thus, although having the highest grade point average in one's class is laudable, knowing that there are 30 others with that gpa helps me put the achievement in perspective. in presenting many of these students in committee (there were 20 applicants from the school, 18 of which were "#1" in the class), i acknowledged the achievement, but was also very, very detailed when speaking about each of these applicants' curriculums (in other words, i distinguished the 4.0 gpa with honors and ap courses - the highest level courses offered at the school - from the 4.0 gpa in a basic curriculum with lots of electives thrown in the gpa computation to fluff up the gpa). also, this was important to do for the other 2 students applying...they happened to be taking all honors and ap courses and were ranked 35 and i think 45 in the class - and outside of the top ten percent of the class, i might add - but were acutally more compelling academically than most of the valedictorians. these two were actually admitted (with 1 of the valedictorians) while most of the others were denied (a few were waitlisted). making these distinctions is also important at schools where the graduating class is very large and there are a lot of students sharing rank for similar reasons. the ranks do not speak for themselves and we have to be careful when interpreting them.</p>
<p>just would like to make a comment about ranks at "competitive high schools"...</p>
<p>i've read a lot on cc in various threads about unfair rankings. i've also read a lot of posts - from both parents and students - about the caliber of their high schools. please understand that we in admissions know about the high schools students are attending. THIS IS ONE OF THE MOST IMPORTANT THINGS FOR US TO KNOW ABOUT in our reading responsibilities. we have to understand the opportunities available to students at their schools and how well the schools may (or may not be) serving the needs of their students. </p>
<p>it is really disheartening (and frustrating, among other things) to read posts or speak to students and parents complaining about the "fairness" of the admissions process with respect to their high schools and ranking. if you are applying to a highly selective college from a high school that is sending the vast majority of its graduates to 4-year colleges and universities, we understand that this school is probably preparing its students very well for college. thus, if you the student are taking the most demanding curriculum you can at such a school and are doing well there (and that doesn't just mean being in the top ten percent of the class), this will be recognized. we do make distinctions between high schools because we understand that not all high schools are created equally (sadly). however, we do not hold the "quality" of a student's high school against them...if you are attending a less-than-stellar school but are doing really well there and challenging yourself, we are going to be excited that you are doing the most with the opportunities you have! if you are attending an excellent secondary school and are challenging yourself and doing well there, we are also going to be excited about that as well!</p>
<p>comments like "well, if my son or daughter was at a public school he/she would be the valedictorian" or "if i was at a less-competitive school i'd be in the top ten percent of the class" are just, well, they just are not productive and are moot, regardless of the truth that may or may not be behind them. we recognize differences between high schools and also that this may be reflected in class rankings. don't send you child to a different school because you think they will have a higher gpa and rank there and that this will help in the admissions process. don't choose to attend a private school and then complain that you are being "hurt" because you can't break into the top 10% of the class there and this is why you'll be denied at elite colleges. instead, attend the high school you think suits you best and challenge yourself there. if you don't have a choice, MAKE THE MOST OUT OF WHAT IS OFFERED. it is our job to understand the learning environment you are in, what is offered there, and what your achievements there mean in the grand scheme of our applicant pools. we know your high schools and what your individual acheivements there mean with respect to how well you are prepared for college, regardless of your rank or your perceived notions of the quality of your school.</p>
<p>This thread is the kind of gold that students and parents expect to find on CC. Thank you.</p>
<p>I don't understand the cutoff system for 10%. If you're like 13/129 would you be outside or inside the top 10%?</p>
<p>AdOfficer, I really appreciated the info in your Paragraph 2, post #27. Thanks. That <em>is</em> more heartening.</p>
<p>The class rank issue has floated around for a long time. Just search these boards. At any rate, there are schools like the one my own D went to that claim to not rank students, but send ranks to colleges on request, believe it or not - they have a lot of strong performers and don't want to hurt their stars.</p>
<p>As others have said, there are a lot of indirect ways of letting colleges know who the stars are, whether through profiles, or recommendations from guidance. And the only ones who really need a precise rank are the stars. For "the masses", I suspect the decile rank is good enough. </p>
<p>It is also true that many of these same schools that no longer rank also send so many applicants to top colleges, that the regional reader can pretty well figure the relative ranking out (which is what matters anyway...)</p>
<p>So in many ways, much ado about nothing, IMHO.</p>
<p>Our public high school just eliminated specific number ranking in favor of reporting by decile. Their reasoning was that very small differences in GPA made noticeable differences in the number ranking and that reporting only by decile will force the colleges to take a deeper look at the whole student. Frankly, I really don't think that there will be a big difference in admissions at particular schools for our students. Our students have always had good admissions results at all but the most elite of schools and it will still probably be the top 5 or so students each year that will truly have a shot at those schools since the schools will be able to figure out which of the students would be at the very top.</p>
<p>That said, I do think it was a good idea to eliminate the specific ranking since it had become so competitive with students that they were choosing classes based on the anticipated effect on their class rank. In the past many of our artistically talented students have foregone classes in the arts solely because they would hurt their ranking (since at our school such classes are never weighted higher like honors and AP classes). Our marketing classes whose students have had great success at DECA competitions suffer for the same reasons. I think its a shame that students in the past have by-passed many such classes that would enhance their learning experiences and help them to become better well rounded persons.</p>
<p>AdOfficer, thank you for your perspective it should be required reading for all us CC parents.</p>
<p>speaking of rankings...guess what comes out tomorrow! my favorite day of the year lol ;) (just kidding)</p>
<p>here's another thought, too, that i often remind colleagues of mine who are hung up on class rankings: suppose a student does miserably freshman or sophomore year because of illness, traumatic experience, trouble adjusting to high school, lack of maturity, whatever, but their junior and senior years are stellar and the challenge themselves and get their acts together/overcome their setbacks. this student's ranking is not necessarily going to be reflective of their achievements and potential. if we just go by rankings or gpa, this student might get overlooked. an upward trend in grades is always a good thing and is not evident just by looking at a cumulative rank or gpa. freshman year, in particular, can be tough for a lot of students because of the adjustment to high school...we in admissions need to read everything about a student's performance and achievements and get as much context as possible! sadly, some schools use rank in class as a criteria for admission and miss a lot of great, smart, curious kids because setbacks in life have affected their class rank...</p>
<p>AdOfficer,
My son was one of those students whom you mention that didn't really hit his stride until Junior year. He ended up in the top 10% of his class but even he didn't know that until after graduation. What a shame that some colleges would by-pass such students. He is continuing to excel at college, which I think shows that the Junior and Senior year performance of students is often a better indicator of their future abilities in college than a four year performance indicator.</p>
<p>At our high school class ranking is based on the last 4 semesters of high school (and are calculated as of 1st semester- senior year). That makes a lot more sense in some ways, although students who have consistently busted their behinds since 9th grade and face burnout have challenges of their own.</p>
<p>Ha! I just remembered, our HS did not rank individually, but when determining who was in teh magic top 5 or top 10, it was based on grade 11 classes only, your grades 9/10 were the basics & the learning, the grade 11 were the ones where the tough got tougher, and the top 5/10 with a mention in the rec letter would always be the ones taking the most difficult schedule.</p>
<p>I recall reading the validictorian hubbubs on this board and being so glad our school took all that out of the equation. Plus grading by % not just ABC made it easy to determine who was where in the class.</p>
<p>I appreciate adrep's posts, #27 was especially poignent. I had one kid top 5 and another who skipped, by choice, grade 9, and that was enough to be in the 2nd ten% decile instead of the first. it is possible she might have been top 5 had she not skipped, but she was just not into HS, though she was also envious of her sister's accolades. Very satisfying to hear yall evaluate the curriculum of the 20 vals and see through the system gaming!</p>
<p>I just graduated from a private prep school and we didn't have class ranks. i think that that was best. each student brings their own qualities to high school and if you put a ranking on gpa then you should put a reanking on musical ability, athletic ability, etc. anyways, i think colleges care more about what you have to offer them.</p>
<p>If you attend a NYC public high school, a ranking system is automatically setup by an external office at the Department of Ed. for each school. NYC specialized high schools, however, can disable this option on their servers as they are exempt from ranking their students.</p>
<p>At my school, students ranked #1-4 all have equally rigorous schedules that were near identical. They all have 4.0 unweighted GPA.</p>
<p>What distinguishes 1 from 4 is that 4 took a summer PE class that added another 4.0 which actually dropped her GPA (since APs are weighted out of 5.0, the fewer 4.0 classes the better). Number 1 took less courses that counted in the GPA, so he had fewer 4.0 classes to worry about, even though the amount of APs they all took was the same.</p>
<p>This makes the ranking stupid, undermines the valedictorian.</p>
<p>Padfoot's story is a slight variation of the story at my school. True #1 ends up #2 because he takes an elective instead of a study hall.</p>