^ I think that is a pretty silly way to look at it.
By that definition, Oxbridge (where for most courses/paths, you study exclusively one subject) are trade schools.
Rowan already awards only about 40% of its bachelor’s degrees in liberal arts majors (i.e. 60% in pre-professional majors), which is probably typical for a moderately selective college.
Of course, students of all majors may be required to have what the college considers necessary for a “well rounded” education (i.e. whatever general education or breadth requirements the college requires). Whether such requirements at any given college meet the standards of any given poster on these forums is another matter.
And then what happens when there is an labour market shift due to new technological advances or economic changes and you find that your particular job is no longer in demand? At least with a broad based education which includes analytical and communication skills and developing the capacity for self directed learning, you will be better poised to shift into a new job sector. Make the education too specific and you will find you have very little cushion to weather changes in the employment sector.If you strictly want job specific skills, then a 4 year college degree is probably not for you. The fact that you view the additional courses required to attain a degree as “waste” says much about your view as to the value of education beyond the practical concerns of employment. A broad based education is also insulation against the ignorance that breeds intolerance, the fear of change and of those who are different, and of being a victim of liars and charlatans. Those who do not possess the ability to critically assess are easy prey for those who would manipulate the ignorant for their own purposes.
@gwnorth what I took out of the information session and your was that Rowan warmly welcomes student who are undecided who want to explore.
There’s a program in place to to assist students to experiment in taking various courses to figure out what they like and then help them to graduate in four years.
There were about eight to ten student tour guides at the Rowan info session and the large majority of them had double majors in diverse areas. I don’t know how they compare to the student body as a whole but those kids were certainly well-rounded.
@Chembiodad As a Rutgers grad who recently visited, Rowan is not like Rutgers and, for the sake of NJ students, I hope it doesn’t become like Rutgers.
Rutgers is good for what it is, but Rowan offers something different that will appeal to many kids. And it gives generous scholarships for kids with above average stats, while Rutgers doesn’t.
At Rowan, you can comfortably walk from one end of campus to the other. Classes are very small. I think the number they gave us was none over 30 students, while most are under 20. And there are no teaching assistants teaching classes.
I admit I had some great TAs at Rutgers, many who were better than professors, but I graduated out of one major without a single professor knowing my name, as a student with a 3.9+ gpa.
I can’t imagine my oldest two thriving in an environment the size of Rutgers and having to deal with all that goes along with it.
And without a doubt, my oldest, an average kid, got a much better education at a small, less selective college where her academics exceeded what I ever had at Rutgers, or even at U if Michigan as a grad student for that matter. Most kids won’t get that at Rowan either, but it will stay on our list because of what it does offer at a good price.
@roethlisburger “If your major doesn’t require at least one course in probability or statistics, and that’s not already covered in gen ed requirements, then it’s not preparing you for the modern, data driven world”
So in your view, all that’s required for a major – ANY major – to be considered “practical” is a statistics class?
BTW, I’m not arguing, just asking. I was a comparative literature major, so definitely NOT “practical” in most people’s minds. I did internships, btw, and did have a job when I graduated… a job that had nothing to do with my major, rather a side-interest I cultivated outside the classroom. Many of my fellow humanities majors similarly found a way to bridge their “impractical” degrees with the demands of the market place. Today, I see young college grads also find ways to put their “impractical” education to use. So I really don’t see a problem with studying abstract and “impractical” fields provided students are realistic about where their degree can take them.
@kaliamom
A statistics class is necessary, but not sufficient, in order for a college curriculum to develop critical thinking skills. You can’t understand the modern literature in fields ranging from business to science, medicine, and engineering to most of the social sciences without a basic understanding of probability and statistics. You can’t think critically about the literature, if you can’t understand it. I’ll caveat that by saying if you have differential and integral calculus, it shouldn’t be too hard to pick up some basics on probability and statistics on your own.
Do actually believe that? 5 years in real life does far more for any interpersonal skills, communication protocols, or any other one on one interaction than any college class.
The problem is college is a rip off and no other “life expense” has increased at the rate college has. These parents fighting over 240k$ undergrad degrees is laughable…send you kid to a public put 150k in a trust and let him/her retire at 45 year old if they so choose because that 240k UG isn’t worth it.
Its laughable the cost! The bubble will burst and it will be ugly especially with DeVos in charge for the next 3.5 years.
This really depends on the job.
If the job doesn’t involve much interaction with other people on an ongoing basis…especially for long periods…one’s interpersonal skills won’t be improved much. It’s especially bad if one’s job requires one to be working by him/herself in an isolated setting for logistical/security reasons*. Saw quite a bit of this not only in technology, but also in some firms in the financial sector and biglaw.
And after college, most folks need to be much more proactive about seeking out social interaction/contact than when they were undergrads/younger.
- I.e. Client/case security/confidentiality concerns means only one/a handful of individuals may work on a case and/or must work in isolation when doing so.
@hannuhylu, yes I really do believe that a broad based education while not infalible, provides a society with a weapon against ignorance and intolerance and an individual with a buffer against a quickly changing employment landscape. I will however make the caveat that in Canada where I live (and many other places in the world) it does not cost $240k to get a 4 year university degree. If you live at home, the cost is more like $40k and if you go away, around $80k. Those costs can be further minimized through internships and co-op placements, and for those who qualify for need based aid, via non-repayable grants and bursaries.
@gwnorth
Its hard to compare your system to ours.
Going to an in-state public university in the US probably has a tuition + books cost of around $40-60k for four academic years. Live at home costs may add another $20k, while going away would add $40-80k. However, US dollars are currently about $1.35 in Canada dollars.
Not all states offer sufficient financial aid to their state residents to make their public universities affordable to those from middle or lower income families.
@gwnorth: “If you live at home, the cost is more like $40k and if you go away, around $80k.”
That’s about the same as many of our publics as well.
@gwnorth @hannuhylu Please do not confuse college Education with trade school Know-How. Both are needed. It’s not just Knowing Answers, but also Asking The Right Questions.
@katliamom “Exactly how do you make philosophy ‘practical’?”
Thomas Jefferson & Benjamin Franklin asked themselves the same question. Their answer was to build a frickin’ country unlike any other that ever existed! And when they were done, they built the University of Virginia and the University of Pennsylvania. They were polyglots.
The world’s best (and sometimes worst) were those who made philosophy practical. History and science (and, yeah, even religion) stem from philosophy, not the other way around.
@PurpleTitan, to be clear when I said $40k that was the total for all 4 years so $10k/year (or $20k/year away from home). Not sure if you meant the same as @hannuhylu indicated a total cost of $240k or $60k per year.
@gwnorth: There are plenty of American publics where in-state annual tuition is around $10K/year and schools in more rural areas would have R&B at around $10K/year as well.
@PurpleTitan then I don’t understand @hannuhylu’s assertion that a 4 year degree costs $240k and is therefore a waste of money.
@gwnorth: This is what @hannuhylu said:
“These parents fighting over 240k$ undergrad degrees is laughable…send you kid to a public put 150k in a trust and let him/her retire at 45 year old if they so choose because that 240k UG isn’t worth it.”
I don’t see any conflict between what he said and what I said. I said that there are in-state American publics that would cost $80K over 4 years. @hannuhylu also said that there are American publics that would cost $90K over 4 years. He also expressed the opinion that fighting for the privilege of spending an extra $150K isn’t worth it (in his mind).
"Thomas Jefferson & Benjamin Franklin asked themselves the same question. Their answer was to build a frickin’ country unlike any other that ever existed! And when they were done, they built the University of Virginia and the University of Pennsylvania. They were polyglots.
The world’s best (and sometimes worst) were those who made philosophy practical. History and science (and, yeah, even religion) stem from philosophy, not the other way around."
@SpacemanEd, you’re preaching to the choir. I’m the first to defend the humanities as a subject worthy of study on the college level. I myself studied comparative literature, out of all things, and I picked “philosophy” as a random example of a field many people also deride as being “useless.” And while I agree with you 100% let me assure you, plenty yahoos out there (including on this thread! I mean, there’s no statistics or higher math in philosophy) would just roll their eyes at your fine explanation. One of those rolling his eyes might even be the Rowan president…