Rowan, Stevens, TCNJ, Rutgers engineering and other schools

College Search & Selection
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The problem with statistics is that they are all based on the past, and ignore the shifting landscape. Here is a link to an article about Silicon Valley looking for LA grads.

http://bostonreview.net/science-nature/tom-slee-silicon-valley-liberal-arts-majors-we-want-you

I remain a fan of STEM degrees, but I feel strongly that it is important to balance that with LA opportunities. We really liked Lafayette (from your list) as a balanced curriculum. Trinity, Union and Swarthmore are LAC’s with engineering. There are a few others.

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If you want to be an engineer in Silicon Valley designing computers, software, electronics, integrated circuits, microprocessors, et al, you cannot do it with a liberal arts degree. The roles for which LA graduates may be hired aren’t those. All ABET accredited engineering schools require a humanities/liberal arts core in addition to the professional coursework. At Stevens for example and many other universities one can minor in a humanties discipline, or, with significant overload, earn a BA degree in addition to the BE (engineering) or BS degree. Engineering is an undergraduate professional curriculum so by necessity most of the courses are STEM, but that doesn’t mean the students do not get a rounded education. Stevens in fact was the first engineering school in America with a humanities department, and is well regarded as balancing the technical and liberal arts education. The Arts and Letters school is known for its rigor and quality.

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@Engineer80, $33k difference in COA per year, multiplied by 4, left to sit at 6% for 40 years.

@njdadjets, funny, my son’s (identical stats and ECs) only two east coast schools that he applied to (and was accepted to both with good merit aid)…WPI and RPI. :smiley: It wasn’t clear that WPI or Utah would lose out until the very end. They are obviously vetting their schools very similarly. Good for him for creating his own criteria!

We visited Lehigh, Lafayette, Bucknell, Brown, Dartmouth, Vermont, and Olin but he didn’t apply to any of them. Rowan didn’t make the visit cut because he didn’t feel like it was worth the money OOS when he had so many other solid financial safeties. It was in the discussion for a while though, especially based on the reputation of their honors program.

If he gets a wild hair and decides to give the west coast a look, have him look at Cal Poly. We are OOS. The total COA is $36k/yr.

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@eyemgh - Except that the difference out of pocket isn’t 33k a year for the majority of the students. I reiterate, despite the higher “sticker” (which again, isn’t what the student actually pays) Stevens graduates still have the highest ROI in NJ and 16th out of 1,300 institutions in the US whose graduates Payscale surveyed. So it is not the case that the publics provide comparable return even with lower “sticker” tuition.

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@engineer80 Rowan also gives good aid to highly qualified engineering applicants, so the cost difference probably remains pretty close for someone accepted to both. Really hard to say without each individual applying and seeing what they end up with. In this case, op seemed unimpressed by Stevens so it wouldn’t be worth the extra cost.

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@Engineer80, I’m not a big fan of ROI, but according to the best source, PayScale, they list Stevens as 124th in ROI in their Best Value Colleges for Engineering Majors.

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http://www.payscale.com/college-roi
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If you select the “With Financial Aid” and “20 Year Net ROI” tabs Stevens is 10th in the nation of all schools surveyed for ROI. I was wrong- I said 16th. Ask a Stevens graduate if they think their tuition wasn’t well invested. With respect to “unimpressed”, it’s not about the age of a building. Stevens is 145 years old, of course it has venerable old buildings (incidentally, Stevens just broke ground on a new 20 million dollar lab and academiccfacility slated for completion in two years, and a new dormitory is planned as well). It is about the quality of the students, research and scholarly output of the faculty, breadth and depth of the curruculum, grants and externally sponsored research, history and track record, and the outcomes of the graduates. In all these areas Stevens is on top. He ought to do some research on what the real academic figures of merit are.

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@eyemgh - I looked at that “Best Value Colleges for Engineering Majors” and I’m laughing. Depending upon how you select the 20 year net and with/without financial aid buttons you get for example MIT coming it at 118th and Olivet Nazarene University at 50 or so (a school that doesn’t have engineering), Stevens at 124th, yet, the list of ROI for all schools list puts MIT and Stevens in the top 10 of ROI of schools in general. That “best value engineering” list is suspect at best. If one believes that Olivet Nazarene University is a better value than MIT or Stevens, well, perhaps I can interest that person in the bridge I have for sale in Brooklyn. In the list of engineering schools by salary, Stevens is 30th in the nation:

http://www.payscale.com/college-salary-report/best-schools-by-majors/engineering?page=3

Come on now, that list of “Value” is highly suspect - how is “value” defined for the purpose of that list? The bottom line is the ROI and start/mid career salary, which are hard measures of value. In those areas Stevens is near the top:

http://www.payscale.com/college-roi (20 year net ROI, with financial aid).

On past surveys Colorado School of Mines for example came in near the top, reflecting its moderate tuition for instate students. On the “value” list, it is somewhere around 120th. How can there be so much of a disparity in ROI and “value”? You have to research how Payscale defines “value”, which can be subjective. ROI and salary are objective measures of value.

On the College ROI list (the second link quoted here), Rowan is 555th overall, and does not appear on the Engineering best ROI/value lists at all.

Take a look at the Stevens placement report from the most recent graduating class:

https://www.stevens.edu/sites/stevens_edu/files/files/Career/Class%20of%202016%20Outcomes%20Report_Final.pdf

Finally, when considering schools don’t rule out a school simply on the basis of the “sticker” (catalog) tuition price. For those schools you are accepted to, run the actual numbers considering the financial aid you will get from each and what your actual out of pocket cost of attendance will be. Meet with the financial aid departments of the schools you are considering, and don’t be afraid to ask if a financial aid offer can be bettered if you are seriously interested in attending that school. Don’t presuppose a school is better because it’s cheaper, or deciding a-priori the cost is infeasible based solely on the catalog tuition.

And as I said earlier, the best of luck in whatever you do. Engineering is a great profession and there are many fine engineering schools.

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@Engineer80, what I suggest anyone do is apply to the schools the deem good fits and then based on financial awards, reassess a rank.

ROI has all sorts of faults. That’s why I posted that link. Who knows which one is real…likely neither.

The bottom line is this…the OP didn’t like Stevens and did like Rowan. They have two private alternatives in the NE, RPI and WPI that they like better than Stevens. Both are very good programs and will net out cost wise to be similar to Stevens. I realize you are a big advocate, but for this particular student, it doesn’t look like Stevens is in the cards.

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I’ve enjoyed this exchange and, this is rare, I pretty much agree with everyone. And my POV isn’t solely for the OP, but also all the other shoppers who might venture here.

The Stevens experience is different from the Rutgers experience which is different from the Cornell experience which is different from the MIT experience which is different from the Lehigh/Layayette experience which is different from the Rowan experience. What is “better” is determined by where the prospective student feels & visualizes he/she can best succeed academically (and socially, if that is a priority).

@Engineer80, I loved your pitch and there is no question that Stevens is a very good choice (although not for the OP). Where I don’t fully agree is your use of salary stats. As a 25-year recruiter who tracks this stuff, I’ve found that your stats are skewed a bit since the primary market Stevens serves is one of the highest-paying regions of the country. It must be, since the cost of housing is one of the highest in the country. If you’re graphing, the “starting salaries” and “median housing costs” lines run parallel (although among the approx. 200 markets, there are maybe 3-5 “boom” markets at any one time that are temporary exceptions). North of the Trenton/Toms River line, salaries start about 65% higher, but housing costs (there’s life after college, which should be the focus) more than double. That’s the reason for the rapid growth along that T-TR line and why South/Central New Jerseyans are more likely to suffer a commute north than vice versa. Depending on which branch of engineering the OP pursues, I don’t see much of a difference in entry-level opportunities that a Stevens grad gets vs. a Rowan grad or Rutgers grad. Stevens has a much-longer track record, which could be good or bad depending on the employers’ experiences (most likely good).

How many Steven grads have GMed an NFL team? I went to Rowan/GSC with one who did. How many Stevens grads were Emmy-winning writers/Producers/Executive producers for hit TV shows? I went to GSC/Rowan with one. My point is that college is a path to a launching pad. The destination depends on the rocket. Will a Stevens launching pad differ from Rowan launching pad? Maybe, but not as much as you might think. Debt could close off some paths, ending with a neophyte choosing a path for the wrong reasons. After 3-5 years, engineering employers I know are far more interested in the projects one worked on and the certifications one has than the diploma.

By the way, I know several recent Rowan engineering grads who used the money they saved on tuition to purchase relatively inexpensive South Jersey houses to live in or as investments. Can Stevens middle-class grads do that? Rowan is not just a college, it’s an Economic Engine for the region.

I totally agree that private colleges’ “real price” is likely to be lower than its “sticker price”, although you rarely find out how much until just before move-in day, which is frustrating. It’s based on merit and need, and private colleges often change their minds, especially around 2nd semester sophomore year when the student is fully invested.

Since @njdadjets seemed unfamiliar with South Jersey, I feel a need to inform on internship/co-op opportunities here, depending on his son’s course of study. There is a strip of major government engineering contractors from Mt. Laurel down to the Atlantic City Airport area. The AC area hosts the largest aviation R&D and testing center in the country, filled with hundreds of FAA/HSC/TSA multi-national engineering firms and subcontractors. Included are jobs developing air traffic control systems, setting fire to planes to test materials, developing baggage/people scanners, training bomb-sniffing dogs, developing more efficient asphalt mixes, etc. Glassboro is at the junction of three utility companies: PSE&G, South Jersey Industries (gas), and Atlantic Electric. DuPont and other chemical companies are right down the road. My daughter’s roomie/soccer teammate, a CS major, got an internship and a job offer from QVC, right across the river. One of my clients (headed by Drexel EE grads) builds power plants (converting natural gas to electric and hot/cold water) for casinos in AC and Las Vegas. Philadelphia hosts refineries. For Chemical/Computer/Electrical engineering opportunities, it’s certainly not Mayberry. If one develops an interesting project list, they can go anywhere and be marketable. I can’t say that about Manhattan, despite what the song says. The people I’ve met who “made it there” made it several other places before Manhattan.

(I should add, in fairness, that most of the SJ civil engineering opportunities are limited to smaller shops, but they are gradually being absorbed/sold to regional & national firms. To get what he wanted on his project list, my son took his first job in Morris Plains - he really enjoyed it and did well - and later transferred to Maryland. Rowan is exactly in between, hence the LBJ/Kosygin summit in '67. My boy is happy, is debt-free, and makes good money which will improve even more once he obtains his PE certification - delayed a year since he got married and engineered a son of his own).

Again, I’ll mention that 100% of Rowan Engineering’s Class of 2013 had jobs in their chosen discipline at graduation, or opted for grad school. I’m assuming that today’s numbers are similar, since we’re further in recovery/expansion mode. And don’t assume that he’d be the brightest light in Rowan City, either. Many upper-tier students have chosen Rowan engineering for the same reasons as the OP is considering it. It’s highly selective. It’s the other schools that are not as selective as, say, a TCNJ; they’ll get some that also considered TCNJ & Rutgers, but also those from a Rutgers satellite or JC transfer.

Bottom line, I don’t think the OP needs a “safety school”. He’s got a Benchmark school with which to compare others. Some fantastic options. If anything, he should take a look at Cornell. If he’s looking for something else, maybe Stony Brook or Drexel. Maybe UDel or Widener as a safety. I don’t see TCNJ, despite its prettiness, as the best option for him. Other than that, he’s got a nice list to winnow down until his son finds the Right Fit. For him.

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@Spaceman- “How many Steven (sic) grads have GMed an NFL team? I went to Rowan/GSC with one who did. How many Stevens grads were Emmy-winning writers/Producers/Executive producers for hit TV shows? I went to GSC/Rowan with one.”

I cannot think of any Stevens alumni who were NFL managers - Stevens alumni strive to contribute to the world more significantly than running a sports entertainment business. How many Rowan grads were founders of Fortune 500 corporations (General Motors, Texas Instruments, Sealed Air, and several others were founded by Stevens alums), Fortune 500 CEOs? General Electric, Pratt and Whitney, Verizon (two), Becton Dickinson, and others, heads or major administrators of government agencies (NASA manned spaceflight, an undersecretary of defense), heads of state (a former president of Ecuador), Nobel laureates (one alum, one faculty member), innovators in science and medicine (one of the inventors of the CAT machine), professors in major universities (I can think of a half dozen MIT and a couple of Harvard profs - maybe even one or a few at Rowan!), and many more. There are several Stevens alumni who won the Emmy Award (one was the host of the PBS TV show “American Experience” author of nine best selling books on American history and politics, and a nationally syndicated columnist. Another won the Emmy Award for development of satellite TV links that are in everyday use now. One was an Oscar winner for invention of the fluid camera support that is used in movie and TV production worldwide, and another was an Oscar winner for inventing the gyroscopically stabilized camera platform.

“By the way, I know several recent Rowan engineering grads who used the money they saved on tuition to purchase relatively inexpensive South Jersey houses to live in or as investments. Can Stevens middle-class grads do that? Rowan is not just a college, it’s an Economic Engine for the region.”

I’m a middle class Stevens grad. I also attended the state university and another somewhat well known technological university in New England in an obscure suburb of Boston called Cambridge - perhaps you’ve heard of it? I own a house in the high cost New York metro area and my mortgage is paid off. So, yes, despite having to pay higher tuition than a run of the mill state college I was able to buy a house and pay it off in the high cost northern NJ area.

“I totally agree that private colleges’ “real price” is likely to be lower than its “sticker price”, although you rarely find out how much until just before move-in day, which is frustrating. It’s based on merit and need, and private colleges often change their minds, especially around 2nd semester sophomore year when the student is fully invested.”

Stevens does not treat its students that way. Scholarships at any school may have requirements that the student maintain a certain GPA (for merit scholarships) or that their families meet certain income criteria (for need based scholarships), et al, and if those bogies change for the student all schools may revise their scholarships - but - Stevens does not rescind or reduce scholarships arbitrarily. When I attended Stevens I know what my financial aid would be prior to enrolling and certainly well before move in day to make an informed decision. They do not wait until the first day of class to finalize a financial aid offer.

“Again, I’ll mention that 100% of Rowan Engineering’s Class of 2013 had jobs in their chosen discipline at graduation, or opted for grad school.”

100% of Rowan grads did not have jobs by graduation day. If you look up Rowan’s placement statistics there were about 10% who still didn’t have their outcomes finalized by graduation day. The NJ Star Ledger article below mentions that 90% had jobs by graduation day, which is an excellent statistic but it’s not 100%:

http://www.nj.com/gloucester-county/index.ssf/2013/05/engineering_tops_the_list_of_d.html

100% of Stevens grads in the most recent class last month had their outcomes finalized (employment, government appointment, grad school, military, or returning to their home country) by graduation day and many had multiple offers

“Bottom line, I don’t think the OP needs a “safety school”. He’s got a Benchmark school with which to compare others. Some fantastic options. If anything, he should take a look at Cornell. If he’s looking for something else, maybe Stony Brook or Drexel. Maybe UDel or Widener as a safety. I don’t see TCNJ, despite its prettiness, as the best option for him. Other than that, he’s got a nice list to winnow down until his son finds the Right Fit. For him.”

Yes, a student should choose the school that is right for him. That said, U Del is not a safety. In chemical engineering in particular, UD is considered one of the finest in the US, because of high level of support from DuPont in their area. It is a national doctoral research university (which Rowan is not in engineering). SUNY Stony Brook too has a much more established track record as well. Rowan will still be a safety for many, IMO.

Just because someone makes a big donation to a school doesn’t immediately make up for having no track record in the field. Rowan is a decent up and coming school, but it has a long, long, way to go the match the track record over the past some 150 years of Stevens, RPI, Cooper Union, Drexel, Lehigh, et al.

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@Engineer80: Well stated. We don’t disagree. Except, don’t believe a newspaper story over a former reporter who was there and met all the 2013 engineering grads. If any outcomes weren’t finalized by grad day, it wasn’t because they didn’t have job offers, they either hadn’t chosen or were awaiting security clearances from the FAA Tech Center.

Not dissing Delaware, either. You’re right, especially about chem engineering. There are many NJans there, including some who weren’t accepted at Rowan. Maybe some vice versa, too.

Going back to the beginning, OP & son were pleasantly surprised by Rowan. My interpretation of his question was “Why not?” and “Is there something that I should know to screen it out or move it up or down our list?”. And, as I mentioned, put in some stuff for them and others (especially NJans) considering engineering schools. There were some great posts, including yours.

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@Engineer80: Well stated. We don’t disagree. Except, don’t believe a newspaper story over a former reporter who was there and met all the 2013 engineering grads. If any outcomes weren’t finalized by grad day, it wasn’t because they didn’t have job offers, they either hadn’t chosen or were awaiting security clearances from the FAA Tech Center.

Not dissing Delaware, either. You’re right, especially about chem engineering. There are many NJans there, including some who weren’t accepted at Rowan. Maybe some vice versa, too.

Going back to the beginning, OP & son were pleasantly surprised by Rowan. My interpretation of his question was “Why not?” and “Is there something that I should know to screen it out or move it up or down our list?”. And, as I mentioned, put in some stuff for them and others (especially NJans) considering engineering schools. There were some great posts, including yours.

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Our son just started his junior year at Rowan. He is a mechanical engineer. We love the school. He is in the honors program. He had opportunities with large merit scholarships, to UR, Stevens, college park, NJIT, Rutgers etc. Honors programs at most. He finished at the top of his class. Even with offers around $25,000 a year, the balance was still huge. He chose Rowan for economics. If he was going to take on debt he could do that for his masters if that’s what he chooses or may go right to work. This past summer he finished his 3rd internship. Two being paid in his field and one as a freshman in research. He just moved off campus with his friends. So far to date he has not taken on any debt. He will finish in four years. Most of his Ap courses were accepted so he had some flexibility. Our other son just came back this weekend from visiting. Also on an engineering tract we are hoping this becomes his first choice. They just opened a second engineering building last semester. The campus itself has grown unbelievably just in the two years he was there. Good Luck.

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@lesliessc my son is freshman at Rowan, I’m an alum. I’m just wondering - are Beau Rivage & Crossings still big off campus living places? Or do the kids prefer to stay up by the new area more? I’m anxiously awaiting junior year in hopes of some savings by moving off campus!

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@njdadjets What’s not to like about Hoboken? It is one of the safest and most entertaining places in the NY area? The West Village is a 10 minute train ride away as well. Stevens is a pretty elite engineering school whose graduates command very high salaries, like Lehigh. Rowan is not anywhere in that league. Rowan is a solid second tier NJ school and in a crappy area. I think you should carefully look at the average cost of attendance, Stevens $37k. Look carefully at what Rowan will cost. I can tell you in my industry Steven’s grads get a first look. Rowan we would not consider.

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@HootieA anyone who doesn’t like big cities wouldn’t like Hoboken. I personally hate Hoboken. Nice yuppy area, with all the poverty pushed to the outskirts. Not my cup of tea. Glassboro also has shady areas, also has a great, brand new downtown and is pretty safe. To each his own.

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@NJWrestlingmom Glassboro has a crime rate per 1,000 residents 50% higher than Hoboken, which is not a big city by any means unless you are a farmer. The vast majority of buidlings are brownstones and walk-ups with parks and tree-lined streets throughout the town. The College Niche survey gives Hoboken an A+ while Glassboro is a C I believe.

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As I said, to each his own. I wouldn’t live in Hoboken if you paid me. I have friends with a $1m condo there. Still not interested.

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@NJWrestlingmom Yes. Crossings & Beau Rivage are still popular off-campus residences. My son, CEE grad '13, had a place at the Crossings and, in my trips there, I pass Beau Rivage. They seem to have been kept up well.

My daughter, a former soccer player, shared a house with teammates on Carpenter Street, right across from the fields. Off-campus housing growth is jumping by leaps & bounds, too.