I take it you were replying to my post above? It discusses other topics, particularly perfectionism behavior among forum members, such as kids striving to have near perfect stats. A kid talking about income inequality or future income challenges does not mean that kid must be a perfectionist who believes they need near perfect stats.
Many students see near perfect stats as one of the few things within their control to help prevent their own downward mobility. You may disagree with them, but that does not lessen their concern. They control what they can, hoping it will hedge them from an increasingly gloomy future. Neither you nor I know if they are right to do so.
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Years ago when grades (and test scores) weren’t as inflated, such kids might be called strivers, but not perfectionists, because perfection just wasn’t possible for most of them. More of them now strive for “perfection” because it is within their reach.
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It could very well be that there is a gender element to it as well. Girls are more likely to identify struggling with whatever choice their own moms made with respect to work/family balance, are far more aware of and sensitive to these tradeoffs that may fall largely on their own shoulders, and frankly think about issues like how/ whether to have and how to afford a family many years before they expect to do so.
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Girls also work harder and take fewer risks and maximize gpa I would think. Boys, I’ve noticed, take more risks, and less maximizing of gpa on the margin.
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For our family it’s more of a sibling order effect. S23 was largely oblivious to these pressures until spring of junior year when he started looking at colleges. D26 was exposed to S23’s college search, and now sees the various admission results of S23’s friends (some of them ended up very disappointed), so she now feels the pressure to be perfect in order to compete effectively in that rat race.
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While there may be a group that strives for near perfect stats because they believe near perfect stats are their ticket to a basic livable wage or similar outcome (I’d phrase it differently, such as some cases of believing near perfect stats → scholarship → being able to pay for college → …), that’s not the group that we see on this forum, which was referenced in the post you replied to. This forum leans strongly on the higher income side, so “downward mobility” below parents on this forum can still be quite affluent, well beyond a basic livable wage or being able to own a home.
What is far more common on this forum is posters seeing near perfect stats as a way of substantially increasing chances of admission to a highly selective college or professional school. You can be accepted to a college with a lot of B’s, but many believe you need near perfect stats to get in to a small handful of extremely selective, mostly private colleges. Many believe that attending such colleges is important for a unique outcome later on in life, beyond just a basic livable wage or owning home… believing a unique career path for a unique group.
I say this because of specific comments made by numerous posters. We regularly see posters suggesting one of the key drivers of their perfectionist stat behavior is hoping to attend a highly selective college and having a unique post-college outcome – not just a livable wage. We also see posters every year who say their perfectionist efforts were “wasted” because they did not get accepted in to a highly selective college and are instead attending a quality safety/match college.
Comparisons also play an important role. You mentioned downward mobility from parents. Some parents do put a lot of pressure on kids to achieve near perfect grades. This is often for reasons much like what is listed above. Some parents believe near perfect stats are required for admission to a top college, and a top college is important for a particular desired outcome… again more than just a basic livable wage. Comparison with peers are also important, particularly in the age of social media. Peers can often be more influential than family, including both imitating behavior and perceived competition.
There are also various other factors that have less to do with perceived outcome, and often more to do with personality traits. Some people are naturally perfectionists and are internally motivated to achieve at their highest level, regardless of whether doing so is expected to have a positive external influence on their life. I think these types of personality traits also fit with the gender differences you reference.
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Of course, that means that a kid growing up in a top 4% income family whose kids will not get college financial aid is more likely to be downward mobile than upward mobile, even though the parents may describe themselves as “middle class”. So if the kid gets the idea that $200k-300k income is needed to be “middle class”, then that adds to the pressure to strive for eliteness at every step which is seen as “necessary” to get to a job with elite-level pay. Parent pressure may also appear because they may feel that a downwardly mobile (in terms of income) kid looks like a failure on their part, even if the kid is happy with a more modest income level.
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I’ve seen this in both genders, probably about equally as I’m thinking of those I know. These are the people who will do a great job at whatever they are doing even if no one is looking or will ever look. It probably goes along with being Type A to some extent.
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The acronym that was used for “strivers” when I was growing up (mostly in college but to some extent in high school) was “narg” (not a real gentleman). The ultimate achievement back then was to be brilliant and successful but without putting in any apparent effort (Boris Johnson is the archetype for this personality).
Now it seems that there’s more openness about working hard, sometimes that means complaining about stress, other times perhaps it’s used as a sort of competitive oneupmanship. And it can certainly be exclusionary, read for example Chris Arnade on front row vs back row kids:
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True - when my daughter was talking about grad school, I still thought she was mostly looking at it from a “studies” perspective and moving towards a “terminal degree”.
Then, in a casual dinner conversation, she suddenly cited prospective entry salary statistics for the aspired career and I realized she was factoring in more things than I had given her credit for.
Meaning that the “real gentlemen” got “gentlemen C” grades because their career path was already set through connections and/or inheritance?
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No the “real” gentlemen got a first while giving the impression to their friends that it was all easy and they didn’t need to work hard.
Here’s an evocative profile of Boris Johnson’s college days:
Must be a difference in how elite universities used to work (and still do work) in the UK versus US. The elites in the US (HYPetc) used to be mostly populated with the scions of the social elite who came from social elite boarding schools (the “gentlemen” who were satisfied with “gentlemen C” grades) plus enough actual academically elite students from any school (including public school) anywhere (the strivers) to keep up their academically elite reputations.
Of course, things have changed:
- The scions of the social elite now need at least plausibly excellent academic credentials to go along with legacy, development, and/or athletic boosts in admissions. Of course, the social elite usually has more financial resources to purchase opportunities for its scions compared to the general population.
- “Gentlemen” grades are now in the range of A- to B (rather than C) at those universities.
- The social elite boarding schools have shifted similarly in terms of greater emphasis on academics relative to social elite origins.
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Whereas “elite” institutions in the UK served the upper classes almost exclusively, with these also having gone through private high schools, which were also mostly boarding schools. While they did have a sprinkling of poor kids who “made it”, as a rule, the entrance tests were aimed at testing for the knowledge that was provided in the schools for mostly hereditary upper classes, but rarely, or not at all, at schools for the working classes.
Oxbridge was for the hardest working kids of the wealthy, while the lower classes were not even in the running.
This is part of that very British phenomenon that Stephan Potter coined the term for - “One-upmanship” (after Gamesmanship and Lifemanship). One of his characters was a college kid who used to hole up in his room studying all of the required and suggested readings, notes, everything, under a sun lamp. Then, on the day of the exam, this kid would stroll into the classroom, with a deep tan, wearing the equivalent of a Hawaiian shirt and with sunglasses, calmly sit down, and proceed to ace the exam.
His books were based on British upper class behaviors, and most of his characters were based on people that he knew. I recommend the books - they are hilarious.
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This is tangentially related. My viewpoint comes from being a middleclass parent in Ohio, both of us have undergraduate degrees. We expected early on that our two children would attend college based on their affinity for learning.
There was a book that they required my D to read back in HS called “The Overachievers: The Secret Lives of Driven Kids” by Alexandra Robbins. I read it after my D did. Two things struck me. First, the academic goals of the kids mentioned in the books would be considered pretty tame by todays standards. Second, I knew a lot of overachievers especially among the circles my D1 ran around with. I suppose they were overachievers too. Among them are my D a Chemical Engineer, a Veterinarian, a person working on her PhD in microbiology, a Dentist, a Math Professor etc. They were all in the top 5% of their HS class. I knew their parents and the kids pretty well. I will say I don’t remember them being overly stressed as a whole. Nearly all were in orchestra, or dance or some other EC that kept them busy. We knew the parents, who were encouraging not pushy.
My 2nd D was more stressed about her grades. She strove to be better (I think because or her sister) and her friends really were not interested in being tops academically. There does seem to be a correlation. I don’t know any of them that went into the sciences and most of them are still attempting to find their niche. We didn’t know the parents as well so I really didn’t have a sense of their attitudes towards it all. Now we will see where these young people will be in a few years. I know my D2 will be a Physical Therapist, another is studying Art History as a grad Student, another is studying Philosophy as a Grad student and there a couple more in grad school. It will be interesting.
I guess one observation I have is that beyond being top students my D1’s friends all had a goal and a direction. They were all focused on working towards their career. None got into the most selective schools but made the most of where they were accepted. D2’s friends were using college to find a direction (not unusual in my opinion). I think many are still searching.
I think my final observation is that it’s easier to achieve good grades when you have an aptitude and a focus rather than just a goal to achieve good grades. If you have a focus and get a B you can still work towards your plan. If your goal is just getting into the “best” college you are going to be very stressed because even being perfect guarantees you nothing.
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This.
We have A/B testing in the house. The kid that was deeply interested in stuff/everything was not stressed. The kid that felt he had to study because grades were important, was stressed.
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The operative term being, graduate school.
S21 is probably going to be throwing his hat into the ring that is graduate school admissions so I’ve been researching and reading up on the process, and if you want to know what’s driving the stress to perfect grades for many students? It’s trying to get into grad and professional school. The message that high school and undergraduate students have been spreading on social media forums where I live, no doubt fueled by the countless media stories of generic bachelor’s recipients ending up as baristas (a trope that certain conservative media outlets and their readership love to push as they are anti-university in general), is that unless you do a professional based undergrad degree (Engineering, Business, Nursing, CS etc.) you’re going to need some type of graduate or postgraduate professional degree to get a job that pays a half-decent income. The near daily trumpeting in the media of the housing affordability crisis just adds to their stress about getting a well paying job (and yes, being able to afford somewhere to live is on the radar of even high school students).
Those professional undergraduate programs by the way have become exceedingly competitive to get admitted to as well where I live which is why many high school students are feeling the stress to get top marks, to be able get into those programs. For many of the rest, grad school & postgrad professional school has become the new undergrad and let me tell you admission to grad school and professional programs is highly competitive. Your post made it sound like for the parents getting a graduate degree or going to professional school was a walk in the park. It is not now (if it ever was).
I’ve never pushed my kids to be perfect. I had no expectations that S21 would be getting the marks that he is in university. We as parents never put that pressure on him. That he’s performed so well is a testament to his drive alone. Am I anxious for my kids’ futures? You bet I am. I do hope that that hasn’t come across to them subconsciously but I’m afraid that it probably has. It isn’t enough for me to have pushed them into certain more easily employable majors though. S19 did choose a more practical path but that was 100% his choice. When we were researching university programs with him we explored a range of different pathways including artistic ones. For s21, as bright as he is, I do worry about what the future will hold, especially given his choice of major. We didn’t discourage him from pursuing it though. The fact that he’s having a difficult time landing an internship for this summer despite his stellar credentials and previous work experience only accentuates it. How he will fare in the graduate admissions rat race has me deeply concerned, but I keep those concerns to myself.
One last point, for all those stories of students with generic degrees landing great jobs that afford a comfortable lifestyle, the one part of the equation that tends to get left out, is personality. My kids are not extroverted go getters and that more than anything, seems to be a requirement to get ahead, even if you have the grades.
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At one point, in the early to mid-90s, it was much easier to get into engineering grad school at “top” engineering schools in Canada.
Both my spouse and I knocked around a few doors, and we both got into engineering grad school with zero recommendation, and in my case - I had done POORLY in that prof’s course.
We filled out the paper app AFTER we got the verbal yes from a prof we liked.
Neither of us had stellar undergrad careers. B+ sounds about right.
This has ALL changed. Let’s just put it this way - all but ONE of the student pubs has shut at my alma mater. Culture has changed.
I don’t know if the kids are brighter, the courses harder. I have many classmates whose kids had to pull 90+ averages to get into our alma mater for the same degree courses. Anecdotally, whereas the median marks were around 68, they are now around 80. Same courses, same university. The kids are working harder. In the good old days, it was almost considered a mark of hono(u)r to do well with 1 day of cramming.
They used to say “Cs get degrees”. But “Bs get interviews” based on the common employer use of 3.0 GPA as one of the screens for prioritization of interviews of college students.
But then if there is an increasing perception of “need” for graduate or professional school (in part due to credential creep), then being a B student may not be seen as enough for admission to graduate or professional school.
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