Sad commentary on student perfectionism and parent enabling of it

Parents Forum
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@neela1, I suspect my younger kids and your kids go to the same type of tristate private school.

Yes, this year, the VERY rich - we are talking boldface, private island rich, got their kids into HYPS. Don’t know what the grades were, ECs.
My feeling is as yours, if you are at the pinnacle of wealth, then there isn’t the drive for perfection in grades. But it’s still a “status” symbol (I think), to go to HYPS, so maybe the families make some huge donation - a sort of perfectionism of life. I am not describing it well. As in, if you have outsize resources, there is the drive to have the best, if not to push yourselves to have the best grades (unnecessary).

“Lower” down - the working rich, or the people who need to stay at their lucrative jobs to pay the eye-watering tuition have to be careful these days to not exert pressure on their kids. Mental health issues, etc. We are all hyper aware. But kids, IMO, are smart, and can quickly calculate what it takes to keep the lifestyle that they have and the jobs their parents have. So the kids feel pressure, and it’s infectious.

There will always be a small coterie of “naturally” intelligent kids who live for the world of the mind and just get those perfect-ish grades anyway. I suspect they don’t feel as much pressure, and it sounds like (if I have read correctly) that your school has that coterie. So does ours.

There are the kids on FA, and they run the gamut. Some feel pressure, others are in that top group so if nothing goes wrong, they will get fantastic results.

As far as managing college application lists, the school doesn’t appear to exert that much pressure to keep numbers down. They will “let” kids apply where they will, so yeah, well over half the class will apply to at least one Ivy or one top SLAC.

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This may be specific to Canada or Ontario. But some professions were not grad school programs in the 90s.

  1. Medical lab technologists - I think they top out around 70k CAD. That WAS a program that you entered right from HS. And they weren’t getting the 90 average students either.
    Sometime in the early 90s, they started requiring undergrad university degrees.

  2. Physical and occupational therapists - direct entry university programs in my day. Then it became 1 year of undergrad prerequisite, now maybe you are not competitive unless you finish undergrad.

  3. Pharmacy - I have intimate acquaintance with this. I got into pharmacy school after HS! With a PCAT score in the 90s and high marks. It became a bit cutthroat and as Ontario has no high school standardized exams, they moved to requiring a year of undergrad. I suspect that candidates require a uni degree now. Very happy that I did not go to pharmacy school - would not have been the right life path for me.

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I think that accurately captures what I’ve been trying to say as well.
People are very sensitive about putting pressure on the kids.
My son applied to a bunch of places for transfer and I was trying to talk him out of a few of these places – and he said you are sounding very patronizing :-).
We generally try to get them to cut their course load.
We regularly push them to get 8-9 hours of sleep. etc.

Of course people are happy to put pressure to call the school and push the teachers to change the grade :slight_smile: (we’ve never done that). That doesn’t mean they are putting pressure on the kid.

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Well, that does happen at some schools, private or public. Maybe it even happens at ours. I don’t know. I know for a fact that it happens at least ONE private school because I have a friend who teaches there.

Yes, there are some parents who are your stereotypical high-pressure parents. They must exist but nobody in our school would confess to this. Every now and then I hear little snippets from my kids about how some friend got in trouble for a B. I don’t know if my kids are reliable tale carriers. Every now and then, I urge the kids to ask for a private session with a teacher to explain where they went wrong in a test. Not to change the grade - this is something the school actively encourages. The sessions are something they advertise - they want to produce graduates who are not to intimidated to engage with a professor or someone in authority.

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re: the grad school rat race- I know kids (now young adults) in my neighborhood who went to non-flagship state U, got into Speech, social work, OT, Master’s in Ed programs and trust me-- these kids were neither 4.0 kids in HS nor 4.0 kids in undergrad. Law school is different- given the structural changes in the legal profession, I don’t recommend that a kid take the offer from third tier law school with the hopes of making a comfortable living practicing law.

But the others? Yes, there are folks on CC who post that if a modest three bedroom house in Menlo Park sells for 1.3 million how is a HS history teacher married to a social worker supposed to keep a roof over their head?

Yup, I get it. But a HS history teacher in Cincinnati (hate to keep using that example but hey, they have schools in Ohio) married to a social worker is a professional couple living in a nice neighborhood with job security (take that, Big Tech) and a nice quality of life.

So if your argument is that kids are panicked that they can’t get into a Master’s program to become a HS teacher, which fuels perfectionism in college, which starts in HS or middle school-- I buy it for the State of California. But what about everyone else? Are there middle school kids in Minneapolis who are panicked that they can’t get into a Master’s program in OT???

Would love to see proof.

And yes, I get it that becoming a PA is now described as just as competitive as med school (another argument I don’t buy since I know a lot of PA’s- including the ones in my primary care practice who are fantastic and trust me- they couldn’t get into med school no way no how) but guess what- nursing schools are still producing competent nurses who get jobs and give excellent care and they weren’t 4.0 students in HS. Nice, energetic, enthusiastic- but not giving the pre-med population a run for their money in organic chemistry or calculus any time soon. Just normal HS kids who go to “regular” colleges and become RN’s with good jobs. No need to claw your way to the top to become nurse.

Would love evidence.

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PA school has become incredibly competitive. I have heard this from kids who were in that space, and who then gave up.
Among other things, 2500 hours of unpaid volunteer work is necessary, and not sufficient.
And nursing school is hard to get into for undergrad. UMich acceptance rate for nursing is 2% or something.

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Yeah, absolutely. I can totally imagine that in many lower COL areas, this is true. Aside from the a2c posters who are from Ohio and want out, and are shotgunning Ivies+.

RN <> PA. Not sure why, but it’s relatively easy to get RN training and not so competitive.

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There is nursing school and nursing school. Vast percentage of nurses don’t go to Penn nursing, Columbia nursing, Michigan nursing. I’m not sure what those nursing grads do but I don’t think they are working in urban hospitals in Ohio for $30+/hr. And they have trouble filling those jobs

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Yes, but I think a lot of new programs are forthcoming for PA. As for nursing, lots of no name colleges and unis are producing perfectly competent nurses. Here is the list of BSN programs in NC:

Getting into a BSN program is not that hard if the applicant can muster some academic rigor/competency. And guess what? It pays the same if you go to Duke versus Winston Salem State.

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Based on the chatter in the nursing major part of these forums:

  • Direct admission BSN nursing majors are often highly competitive for frosh admission, including at colleges where admission to other majors is not very selective.
  • Some direct admission BSN nursing majors (usually those with less competitive frosh admission) have aggressive weed-out procedures (e.g. 3.5 college GPA each of first four semesters at Arizona State University).
  • Other BSN nursing programs have highly competitive secondary admission after a student spends two years as a pre-nursing student.
  • ADN / RN → BSN programs are generally less competitive, but community college ADN / RN programs can be hard to get into due to the demand.
  • ADN is less preferred than BSN among some nurse employers (credential creep).
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They are in my neck of the woods. You aren’t getting into an undergraduate nursing program here without a > 90% high school average (where for us 90%+ is an A+) and your admission courses need to include grade 12 Biology, Chemistry, and Math. Nurses here get paid very well and the programs are in great demand making admission highly competitive.

I will concede however that one can not compare the Canadian and US educational and employment landscapes.

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That has almost always been true, even in my day.

But! In Canada, you can train as a nurse at university (hard to get into) OR at community college (in my day not hard). I don’t know the difference between the 2 types but laypeople like me call both types “nurse”. Anecdotally, uni-trained nurses don’t do the hard slog type of nursing. Ontario used to have lots of nurses from HK/Philippines/Eastern Europe staff the hospitals, nursing homes, etc.

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Everything you say may be true.

But someone who wants to become a nurse doesn’t NEED direct admission BSN, and doesn’t NEED a weed out program, and doesn’t NEED all these other things. That’s my point. Folks here are extrapolating from U Michigan and U Penn and assuming that the stress/rat race has been pushed all the way down the food chain in nursing- and it hasn’t. There are still colleges nobody on CC ever posts about who have respectable BSN programs and affiliations with perfectly competent hospitals who hire their grads.

So if you want to believe that in order to get a job as a nurse you better start planning in 8th grade and can’t risk a B- in French or your career is over- have at it. But it’s not accurate for the vast majority of kids who are interested in nursing.

And OT, Library Science, Social Work- all respectable professions.

Nice kid in my neighborhood- just got a job in a big eldercare facility as an OT- one of these comprehensive centers which start with independent living and go all the way to end of life care. They pay well, it’s a respected facility known for a high standard of care; they hire great people and provide a lot of professional advancement.

Her parents are over the moon. This was the type of kid who always had a smile on her face but boy did she struggle. LD’s, ADD, the gamut of the acronyms. Needed tutors, extra support, I don’t think her parents ever thought she’d get INTO college let alone FINISH a Master’s degree and get a job.

And there it is. OT is a great and important profession, but anyone on here who claims it’s “just as competitive” as neurology or hematology or another competitive medical specialty is delusional. Was it challenging for someone with LD’s? No question. Does that make it an uber-competitive profession? Not by a long shot.

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So I looked up that hypothetical couple in Cincinnati. The history teacher median ( not starting) salary is $57k; the social worker median $56k. There are very few homes for sale in good public school districts for less than $400k, which our hypothetical couple will barely qualify for with a sizeable down payment saved by the time they get to that median salary, assumingthey have no student loans to payoff as well. I think many kids correctly assess the financial pressures they will face…

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Right, on the numbers. But how would student perfectionism help that couple? They got into grad school, they graduated (hopefully without onerous loans).

I think people are stressed even in lower COLA, but I don’t get why stressing about grades plays into it for this example.

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The BSN programs are impacted (i.e. competitive admission due to more applicants than there is space for) at all CSUs that offer them, including campuses that admit anyone with a 2.5 HS GPA to other majors: https://www.calstate.edu/attend/impaction-at-the-csu/Documents/ImpactedProgramsMatrix.pdf . Some RN → BSN programs are not, but the hard part is getting into a community college RN program first.

OT is an example of credential creep. A little more than a decade ago, OT was available as a bachelor’s degree program. But the minimum credential now for OT is a master’s degree.

Sure, it is not as competitive as MD in neurology etc… But the bar is higher than it was before.

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222

Mazel tov! I don’t know if this is possible for a slacker kid (one of mine) but I always point out that slacker kid can maybe be one of those NYC child psychologists! Closing in on $400/hr, bring your dog to work, don’t bother with insurance. Long waiting lists.

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How did you get the $400k limit for home prices? The median sale price for a 2-bedroom in March 2023 was $170k. 3-bedroom was $225k. Looking up 3 bedroom/2+ bath that are currently for sale in Cincinnati, the vast majority are listed for under $400k, including many in what I expect to be desirable school district areas.

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I did not include the city of Cincinnati itself, as per the reference post it sounded like our hypothetical couple wants a safe suburb with good public schools–of course, I also did not include the $1600-1800/month price the daycare I looked up costs, since it seems like our couple might want a child but presumably needs to keep both full time salaries.
School district data from niche; the suburb Blue Ash seemed fine with good schools. And a starter home for 399k

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So, couples I know with similar numbers end up (unless they have free childcare from family) having one person quit the workforce to stay at home while the kids are not in school.
So hypothetical couple would likely have the social worker quit (likely easier to get back in) and have the history teacher stay (tenure) and pick up tutoring gigs/summer gigs to make ends meet.
I know that is FAR from the topic. Sometimes, especially with the teacher example, the school district cuts families some slack and if the parent teaches in a good school district, will let the kids attend if they live in a less desired one.

My sibling and teacher wife live in what was a nice medium COL Toronto suburb. They made it work with childcare costs because of family help. Equivalent-ish numbers to yours - so 150kish total income, 500k house. 3 kids. They had 25% dp given by parents, 1 year of free childcare. And likely saved zero money in those 8 years when they needed childcare. But all good now.

But no, never strove for high grades or anything like that as it would not have helped their situation. Not all jobs pay $$$ and the family was in the position to help.