<p>I agree with InterestedDad also. My D was waitlisted at a school where her credentials were above the 90th percentile for admitted students. The school simply didn't need any more white, out-of-state females with no hook and a need for considerable financial aid. Identify schools for which your S would be a desirable commodity and you should do fine.</p>
<p>Thanks for all the advice and for the book recommendations. The trouble is, I'm not sure how desirable a commodity my S is at the kind of school he would prefer to attend. He's thinking of an international relations/language type of major. He's white, middle class, second generation college. Our EFC is approximately 26-28,000. He is not an athlete. He is involved in school activities, but has not won (nor has he tried to win) statewide awards, etc. He's a bwrk. A little laid back though intellectually curious. He has taken the most rigorous course load at his school, which will end up including all honors possible and 8 AP's. </p>
<p>I am still confused because if an unhooked kid is a match at the 75%ile, according to interesteddad, the same school is a reach according to bethievt, if I am understanding correctly.</p>
<p>Take for example Trinity College in Hartford, a school which seems to offer the kind of courses he is looking for as well as decent financial aid. He is at approximately the 75%ile, (690 M and CR) according to the '07-08 CDS. According to the school website, the entering class in '07 had 68% in the top ten percent. Sounds like he should be okay here, except that the acceptance rate for that class was only 34%.</p>
<p>So because of the admit rate, this would a reach? A reachy-match? What would you say?</p>
<p>I'm left-leaning politically, but when it comes to college admissions, I am ultra-conservative. Some people might call Trinity a safe school for your son. I'd call it a reachy match because it can't hurt to be careful and I'd say he needs to go safer than that unless he applies there ED and gets in. Of course he should apply wherever he's interested and see what happens. Some school that sounds like a reach may want someone exactly like your son to round out their class.</p>
<p>An example from the current admissions cycle--a young woman with tip-top stats, EC's etc. was rejected from U of Chicago and WL'd at Grinnell. Both schools "should" have accepted her based on her profile, but they didn't. An earlier poster mentioned the andison story. Based on his profile, "everyone" expected him to be admitted to Wash U or Oberlin, but he wasn't.</p>
<p>I think it's okay to call it a match, if you keep it clear in your mind that a match isn't a guarantee, it's just a better than 50/50 chance. If you can't keep that clear call it a reachy-match. :)</p>
<p>ilsa, I think you've received good advice but you need to simplify. If you get too twisted in the metrics, you can miss the nuances, which are considerable.</p>
<p>First, build from the bottom up. Identify one sure thing safety that you and your son are comfortable with. This means that the thought of attending doesn't give you hives. If this safety is also an EA or rolling admit school more the better. Applying to an EA or rolling school may or may not be the same as identifying a safety. It depends on how he feels about the individual school.</p>
<p>Devote a disproportionate amount of time in finding the safety. Ultimately one is all he needs, but he may need to research and VISIT several before picking THE one.</p>
<p>After that it doesn't much matter whether schools are match-y reaches or safe matches or reach-y matches. Or as Hamlet said: "[avoid those] reechy kisses". :) </p>
<p>Try to a list of 10 to 12 that appeal in a range of admissions rates and don't excessively obsess about characterizing them.</p>
<p>I think Trinity is a case in point. Excellent academics in a lousy environment -- this makes for a "good value" in admissions. You will find others that offer the same kind of positives but have what would be for some fatal flaws -- gender imbalance, location, low prestige for example.</p>
<p>If you are in the financial position to apply ED enourage your son to play that card as well, but remember you won't be able to compare financial offers.</p>
<p>I'm also ultra-conservative in college applications, but at the same time I believe in shooting for the stars. In other words take out the necessary insurance policies -- i.e., find your safety and love your safety -- have a solid group, 3-4, that are reasonable chances and a few super reaches.</p>
<p>Unhooked Middle class white males are an endangered species at a lot of colleges these days but I still believe that if he takes the time to think about what he wants in college -- size, atmosphere, geography -- he'll be able to come up with a list that balances selectivity. Will there be tradeoffs? Yes, but the place to start is with the wish-list: what are must have, what can be sacrified? </p>
<p>Then. . . on to the application. How to make that BWRK stand out from the pack.</p>
<p>ilsa:</p>
<p>I really don't like saying someone else's kid is a match or a reach unless I really know the school well. But, I will say this:</p>
<p>One of the most valuable passages in The Gatekeepers is a section where an adcom is skimming through an application against a mental checklist: </p>
<p>class rank: check
all three sciences: check
three years of language: check
SAT scores: check</p>
<p>And so on and so forth. When you have an app that starts adding check marks to check marks (high class rank PLUS 75th percentile SAT scores PLUS rigorous curriculum, you can feel a lot better.</p>
<p>There are a lot of applicants in a 65% rejection rate school that have a glaring hole. For example, they might have the 75th percentile SATs but a "slacker" class rank outside the top ten in a run-of-the-mill public high school. That's why I'm so gun shy about predictions here because I don't have the luxury of seeing the complete picture.</p>
<p>When people are shooting for the very top at the most selective colleges and universities (the under 20% acceptance rate schools), the mistake they make is not asking "is there something on this application that is going to make them accept this student". The stats alone are not enough.</p>
<p>When selective colleges admit, they know that applicants at the high end of scores and GPA are the ones least likely to attend; the ones at the low end are most likely to accept admission. Thus, schools admit more at the high end than the low end, knowing the yield will be lower at the high end. So if you want to target a match school where you figure you might have a 50/50 chance, all other issues being equal (and they never are) you might need to be at a significantly higher percentile in a given category, where the range might be the 67th %ile to the 75th %ile (as idad indicates).</p>
<p>That's one reason some schools like ED; they know that they're getting the applicants they see and admit, whereas RD is more of a crap shoot for them.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Scores are much higher than the midrange but acceptance rates around 35%.
[quote]
</p>
<p>Going by the source I mentioned and not considering any other aspect of the application whether or not it's a potential positive or negative influence (for example fabulous recs, need for financial aid ) on the app I'd say this meets the definition of a match or reachy match. Again, if you had more information ie a track record of acceptances that would reflect a good relationship with your school you might be able to better fine tune your guess.</p>
<p>These days you just don't know what is a match. We were told right out that two schools that would once have been a match for my son that because of demographics and because so many kids from son's school turn down those two schools (both within an hour of our home), that they are high match, low reaches for him. Being a male made it slightly better for him. He was accepted early action to both schools with nice merit packages. Kids who applied later in the process with similar stats (mostly higher grades, slightly lower test scores) were waitlisted, did not get as generous packages. Noone turned down in his range, however. Boston College which is very, very popular here turned down most girls who were in ivy reach range, and waitlisted or turned down a bunch of boys all within their admissions ranges. No one with money. Trinity is tough going from here too, as are many of the selective LACs here in the North east. On the other hand, midwestern schools like Macalester, Carlton, Grinnell were bonanzas this year for kids here on the east coast. Oberlin is tougher than you would expect even for kids here. From what I saw in our high school, it was a tough year all around with kids shut out of many match schools.</p>
<p>It is always good strategy to consider "the reverse commute" theory. If the entire country is driving towards Boston College and you like in New England, how can it possibly pay to join that traffic jam?</p>
<p>Find the same school in Minnesota and enjoy much less traffic on the highway to college admissions.</p>
<p>These have been lovely responses. Unfortunately, my S has been burdened with a rather rare medical condition which surfaced this past winter. For this reason we don't feel comfortable sending him to the midwest for school, an option we had previously strongly considered. He feels the same way since he understands the challenges which lie ahead for him due to his condition. He has dealt amazingly well with this stress in addition to the academic stresses of junior year, and will deal in the same way with the more stringent college competition on the east coast, I am sure. I think I'm beginning to get a better handle on the definitions in order to prepare a preliminary list of schools for him to visit. Then we can dig deeper into "nuance," the factors which are entirely up to him to sort through according to his preferences.</p>
<p>"The trouble is, I'm not sure how desirable a commodity my S is at the kind of school he would prefer to attend. He's thinking of an international relations/language type of major. He's white, middle class, second generation college."</p>
<p>Have him look at the LACs that are seriously short of male bodies, particularly the ones that used to be all female. Skidmore, Vassar, Goucher and Connecticut for example. Spend some time on the US News website (which costs money) or at the common data set on the college websites -- look at the total number of men who applied and were accepted and compare that to the total number of women who applied and were accepted, and then figure out the ratio of men to women of the freshmen class. If you add in geographic diversity (i.e., if your son lives in New England consider schools in the midwest), then I think you'll find that your son is a desirable commodity.</p>
<p>You have gotten great advice the only thing I would add is that in addition to looking at the AR for a school also look at the AR for the particular area of study your child is considering. My D applied to eight schools w/ one being an IVY so it was definitely a super reach. She also applied to several schools that would be considered a reach/ match but the AR for their journalism program made them a super reach/reach.</p>
<p>OP: GPA and SAT scores alone are no more a criteria for Reaches/Matches/Safeties.
Look for the following as the criteria.
Super Reaches: Any College that is under 15% acceptance rate is a super reach for everyone.
Reaches: Colleges where your SAT score is below 75% mark for either of Critical and MAth or the college AR is less than 20%.
Matches: Where your SAT score is above 75% and GPA above average GPA and AR is between 20-30%.
Low Matches: Where your SAT score is above 75% and GPA above average GPA and AR is between 30 - 40%.
High Safeties: Where your SAT score is above 75% and GPA above average GPA and AR is 40 - 60%.
Safeties: Where your SAT score is above 75% and GPA above average GPA and AR is > 60%.</p>
<p>ilsa -
I agree with the other posters that problematic admissions results start to kick in around the 40-45% acceptance rate. However, I think you could consider such a school a match as long as you all remember that matches are not safeties - even for students with stats above the 75%. </p>
<p>Like fireandrain, I used the USNWR website to look up stats when my son was applying. Remember, though, that the numbers are going to be a couple of years out of date. Always check the college's own website for more up-to-date information. </p>
<p>In some ways, limiting your search to New England makes things easier (although I am sorry to hear it is for health reasons) - you can focus, and not have a competely crazed college visit itinerary.</p>
<p>"Matches are not safeties." I will learn it and live it between now and next fall.
I just wrote down POIH's definitions. They make perfect sense.</p>
<p>I disagree with POIH definitions. A college with an acceptance rate between 20 and 30 percent is a reach, for practically everyone. </p>
<p>I'll repeat what bethievt said, because that is a conservative approach that I also believe in: </p>
<p>"The ones accepting 60% or more we considered safe, the ones in the 40's and 50's we considered matches and below 40% AR, we considered them reaches. He probably had one high reach, a school that accepted under 20%."</p>
<p>As others have pointed out, there are lots of exceptions to this rule. But I'd use this as the starting point.</p>
<p>I am a new poster to this thread, sorry if this has been suggested already. Check out collegedata.com. You can type in a school and see the stats of students that were admitted, rejected, waitlisted at different schools. Click on an individual and see what their ECs were, where else they applied, if they got merit money. It has been helpful for me looking for schools for my S. If you click on a school's info, they go into more detail about the school.</p>
<p>If I call 30-40 AR on his list reaches, he will have no ability-matches (especially in the northeast).
Okay, so 30-40 will be a reachy-match. 20-30 a reach, below 20 a high reach. 40-50 a match, 50-60 a matchy-safety, and 60+ a safety. All assuming above 75%ile GPA and SAT/ACT, and keeping in mind that a match is not a safety. Will fine-tune for gender AR's, field of study AR's, etc.</p>
<p>There are often no true "matches" for high-performing students. The private colleges and a few out-of-state publics where their test scores and GPAs are typical all reject more such students than they admit, and the colleges where admission is less chancy tend to have meaningfully weaker median numbers for their classes, and fall more into the category of safeties (even if they're not totally safe).</p>
<p>Really, what many such students consider (or should consider) their "matches" are the honors programs within public and private universities. Your son may be well in the top quartile in all respects for your in-state flagship public overall (wherever you are), but it often has an honors program (or some other special programs) where ambitious, high-performing students congregate to some extent. Some out-of-state public universities, too. Based on anecdotal evidence and peeking at various Naviance sheets, I think a high-performing out-of-state student has a better-than-even chance of being accepted at Michigan or Berkeley, two universities with world-class opportunities to offer. (Michigan has an honors program, Berkeley doesn't. Michigan also accepts a wider range of in-state students than Berkeley.) Penn State is increasingly competitive, and its honors college is full of kids with very high numbers, but it is still not as much a lottery-type proposition as any of the most selective private colleges.</p>