They are probably self educated in the needed CS (and math), not uneducated.
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Programming aspects of CS and systems, I’m sure, but not math or theoretical aspects of CS.
Sure I have a buddy who dropped out of Columbia Engineering and is now a senior sys-admin …
But these are exceptions … Math is key! Quant-dev roles pay a LOT in CS.
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The fact that he got into Columbia engineering likely shows he has the skill set including math ability. Agree it is an exception.
Of course, math is important, especially for some of fields (AI, CS theory, etc.) under the CS umbrella. Some even require advanced physics (quantum computing).
He took physics honors freshmen year (his school does “Physics First,” which I’d imagine is less heavy on the math, if they are taking it before they even take algebra 2). He got an 85. Many Comp Sci programs, even when in the college of Engineering, seem to be willing to take Biology as the lab science. Certain focuses might require a certain science, however. For example, if you want to go into Bioinfomatics at one school, you are required to take Chemistry as your science
I do tech for a living. There some truth here, but some are misconceptions.
First, there’s no such thing as a “weed out” course. With any major, classes get progressively more challenging. At some point students decide if their choice of major is a good fit for them.
Second, it doesn’t matter whether the degree is in the college of engineering or not. CS is ridiculously employable. In fact, most graduates end-up in corporate IT jobs and spend an entire career never looking at a math problem. That’s what spawned IT degrees. Tech is absurdly diverse, and virtually all of your skills will be learned on the job.
“Aim for a school below your stat level.” That one is true. A lot of smart kids go for the prestigious schools, and get burned later when they get rejected from their major and are forced to lose credits transferring somewhere else. You seriously don’t need prestige in this field. Employers are looking for people who can code. If you can master one coding language, it’s easy to learn another one.
“Math classes in college are more difficult than high school.” True, but you learn math a lot better in college. A lot of colleges make you take calculus again, because there’s no telling how well the high school taught them the math. It’s better to just take the math in college, because the classes are designed around the curriculum.
“If you declare your interest in computer science, admissions will look more closely at your math,” False. Admissions only look at your overall grades/score to make the admission decision, nothing more. The curriculum determines what courses to take. Don’t expect high school math to waive any curriculum requirements.
How important is it to do well on the AP computer science test? It’s no more important than any other class in high school. CS departments don’t have anything to do with admission decisions. The admissions dept will only see the final grade on your transcript.
What about pursuing a BA in comp sci, rather than a BS? That really doesn’t make a difference, unless you’re planning to do heavy math-intensive programming. There’s a thriving market for graduates with IT degrees too. Tech is very diverse, and there’s a job for any one of these degrees. What employers are looking for is someone who can code and can learn quickly.
Not really, virtually all programming is learned on the job. Math and programming don’t have a direct correlation. It only depends on what specific job you’re in. Tech is absurdly diverse, and most IT pros make a thriving career without ever looking at a math problem 
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Yes, the “big fish in a small pond vs a small fish in a big pond” decision. I’m not convinced that going to an easier school would necessarily translate into higher grades for him, as he has verbalized that he pretty much aims for a B+/A- in whatever it is and then gets what he gets. Therefore, if he were at a more difficult school, he still might only get the B+ and not have the advantage of saying that he went to the better school. BUT, your point about having more time to focus on his area of interest is a very good one. Plus, he has a LOT of trouble with self-advocacy, but it would be lessened in the more intimate environment of a smaller school.
If he were to go for a small LA college, I would still like it to be one with a strong CS program. I think it will be important to find the right balance between rigorous enough and too rigorous.
He took Honors Comp Sci last year and is taking AP Computer science A. If there is math in there, he doesn’t seem to mind it much. They are only about 2/3 of the way through the year, but he likes it and is doing very well.
Thank you for this. I am currently learning way more about computer science than I care to, but what I am discovering by talking to y’all is that I shouldn’t just be counting the math courses, but also which computer science courses are required for the major. In my niavete, I just thought that the only required math were the actual math courses and that all other math could be avoided by picking a CS discipline that didn’t require more of it. I guess that is true to some degree, but it seems there are some very math-y computer science core requirements as well.
That is what my husband said.
You conflate IT with CS. The “S” in CS stands for science for a reason. As I stated in an earlier post, one doesn’t need much math to be a basic programmer (or an IT person). CS isn’t just programming, even though programming is a part of CS (and IT). If you were confined to be a basic programmer, you wouldn’t last too long unless you’re willing to sacrifice your family life, as younger programmers come along (they would have more time to dedicate than you), and you couldn’t advance to become a software project lead because you lack the skills to be an software architect in designing and optimizing softwares (which require understanding CS theories that are essentially math). Basic programming skills are also likely to be replaced by intelligent self-programming agents in the near future.
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Hey peeps! (I now feel like you are my peeps 
I’ve opened a new topic titled “minimizing math in computer science.” It takes some of what I’ve learned here (and I’ve learned a LOT) and focuses more specifically on a possible, definitive example of a plan. I would love your collective input and am still happy to continue here as well! I’m so glad I found this site.
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I understand the appeal of higher tier school names, but for safties it helps to look at the weakest part of the resume. Please don’t confuse lower ranked with easier; that is definitely not the case. All ABET programs have a standard to maintain.
Has he shown any interest in the college search process? IHas he toured and liked any school? If not, that’s not unusual. Has he taken any DE classes; is that an option where you live? It may be a way to see if he’s truly a just underachieving, or if he’s struggling a bit in the subject. Does he have a 504 for extended time in school, and did he have an extended time accommodation on his SAT? Do you have a transition plan in place at school and at home? Sorry; I know lots of questions. I have a bit of experience with these students, so just trying to get an idea of his overall “picture.”
In regards to:
I’ll address this particular question just based on personal observation/experience with engineering/CS HFASD/ADHD kids at 4 different schools of varying rank; 3 do not have caps/secondary apps after freshman year, just very reasonable minimum GPA requirements. I think “weed-out” is subjective. What I’ve noticed is calc, chem, physics, etc are typically equally hard at all of the schools. The difference seems to come in with their HS experience. I see a lot of neurotypical 4.0 kids bombing these freshman “weed-out” classes, but the ASD/ADHD kids I know personally are all doing well. Why? I would imagine it has something to do with how their AP classes were taught in their high schools, using a variety of teaching methods including self-learning. It has a lot to do with self advocacy and motivation to reach out to profs, TAs and tutors for help, and a lot to do with strict study habits developed in hs that made the transition easier. In addition to the increased depth and breadth of material taught in a shorter amount of time, I think some of it may also reflect a bit of a “spoon feeding” teaching technique in some high school classes, which can be a stark contrast to the way these subjects may be taught at a university. Depending on the uni, many of these classes are self-guided or lecture based and aren’t graded on a curve, which can be a shock to kids. I don’t know if the classes are intended to be weed-outs, but they seem to do it by nature of the coursework, which demands attention to detail, drive to research and ask questions, and maybe a little natural affinity for the subject. The kids who seem to be struggling the most are the ones who struggled with the math component in each class; chem, physics, etc boil down to the ability to quickly solve problems.
I’ve researched several ADHD, EF and ASD programs over the years; there are some good ones out there, but they only work if the student is an active and willing participant who is ready to advocate for themselves. I think what’s most important is finding the right fit and environment, making sure it’s an environment where the student will be challenged, supported and most importantly happy. Luckily he’s leaning towards a major that is in demand; whether he goes to MIT or CC, he will be marketable.
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He is full on screwed, based on the majority of factors you list above.
He’s not much into the college process at all. Many people have told me that going to visit colleges is what starts to spark interest and it’s not so easy during COVID. We will go do some self-guided tours over spring break. Even if he were more curious, I don’t see how he would make any sense of all of this. I feel like I’m earning a degree in the application process, am very committed to learning it, and am still struggling mightily! His involvement thus far has been to sit with me once, plug stuff into Naviance and, in his very black-and-white, asperers’ way, pick the 3 schools that said “100 % match” and go on to wonder why there would be any additional research to do.
We live in NJ. They do have a summer program that is usually residential, but it will be virtual this year. None of the subjects are ones that interest him and the idea of him sitting in front of a computer all summer makes me want to gag. I don’t know that taking a course there would even discern if he’s underachieving or struggling, because whichever it is would just translate to DE courses at this juncture.
He does have a 504 with extended time (for everything) and other accommodations. Everything that characterizes HFASD/ADHD characterizes my son, with the exception of the tendency to have a knack for numbers. He’s the quiet, non-self-advocating, inattentive type who would love to disappear, rather than be noticed.
Self-advocacy, motivation to reach out for help and strict study habits are entirely foreign to him. I have no idea how the AP or other courses are being taught and whether it would even be reflective of how they have been taught in the past. The kids barely seem to have any homework. His precalc teacher seems to be the only one holding the students to any standard and she even said she’s about 6 weeks behind where she would typically be at this point (which bodes even worse for his mediocre math grades). They don’t even know if there are going to be final exams.
Where I am confused is how, if the aforementioned classes aren’t any easier at the lower tier schools because of ABET, how the heck do kids at Appalachian State (I bring this up, because they seem to have a strong ASD program) have a prayer when compared with a kid taking the same thing at MIT (and, obviously, the many shades of grey in between)?
I’ve also been looking at the support programs and am pretty well versed in them. They are playing a large role in which schools I am looking at. That said, what you are telling me is what the schools themselves are telling me, you can lead a horse to water…He’s been seeing an executive function coach weekly. He relates well to her. He doesn’t resist the sessions. He doesn’t do a darned thing she says. Sometimes he doesn’t see the value, most times the video games are just too tempting. It is for this reason, almost entirely, that I think a community college might be the next best step for him. It is difficult to wrap myself around the idea (or the idea around myself?), as the kid has, if we are talking weighted, a 4.0 GPA.
The community college idea scares me too. If he goes, the plan would be to be totally hands-off, with the exception of help he seeks for himself (we are MORE than happy to provide WHATEVER he needs). If he bombs, what is he going to say he did that semester/year? If he does so-so, but not as well as in high school, doesn’t that effectively bring down his GPA? Lastly, is a kid that fits his profile really going to keep up the good work the spring of his senior year? If he applies to school next fall, spring semester doesn’t matter so much. If not, schools will be looking at that.
As for the kids struggling with math struggling the most, the math courses themselves are going to suck, but we will find a program that keeps them to a minimum. Also, there are plenty of computer science programs where the science requirement can be biology (or even geology…). It’s more the math that is actually integrated in the computer science that has me worried. When it comes to quickly solving problems therein, I think it will very much depend on the kind of problem.
I really appreciate how responsive you have been to all my questions.
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ABET-accredited programs have a high minimum standard, but that does not preclude programs at some colleges going beyond the minimum in content and rigor.
Also, many CS major degree programs are not ABET accredited*, although any decent one has high minimum standards. At many less selective colleges, CS is not a very popular major because of the difficulty.
*Non-ABET-accredited CS majors are fairly common. They do not necessarily have non-CS science requirements (which are required for ABET-accredited CS majors), although some do. They may also have fewer math requirements than the minimum for ABET-accredited CS majors.
Thank you; I know that must’ve been hard to type. Take a deep breathe. I’m guessing you’ve wanted to get all of that out for a while. Repeat after me; he will be OK. I’ll message you my info; I’d be happy to bounce around ideas.
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