Safety School Quandry

<p>I'll add to that--before my daughter, a prospective j school student, started looking at schools, we checked with people in the industry. One, who worked with me in college on The Michigan Daily, is now the EIC of The Chicago Tribune. The Trib does its hiring largely from the leading j schools. So do many/most of the big city dailies. So does espn. Those organizations do not look at grades anywhere near as much as they look at "clips", or actual articles or productions, which are abundantly offered.</p>

<p>The other side, of course, is that my friend is the EIC without going to a j school. Another guy I worked with on The Daily was, for a good length of time, the Editor of Sports Illustrated. You can get there either way.</p>

<p>The notion that j schools produce "fact checkers" and the Ivies produce journalism stars is ludicrous, as would be the notion that you "must" go to j school to become a successful journalist. It depends on what each student wants. Anything else is rationalization or ego feeding.</p>

<p>@curmudgeon
[quote]
...merit based...

[/quote]

I understand now, it was late :)</p>

<p>After reading some more, I also realize I had the wrong image of "saftey". Apparently the schools i thought were safety are more like, "last resort" lol!</p>

<p>
[quote]
Why on earth would anyone think they can get into journalism without a journalism degree - regardless of the name of your school?

[/quote]
Because people do just that every day?</p>

<p>Welll the fact checker comment is priceless and it just goes to show there are some superior beings on this very board. Who knew? Ah the struggles of class. And we thought all in America are equal with the same opportunities for a quality HS or college education. </p>

<p>I like to see students apply to a wide range and it may be that the IVY at full ticket is right for them while another may weigh the merit options or less expensive state schools and decide to go that route. Come April, crunch time, and you visit on accepted students day you could very well come away with a different choice. BTW if you are looking at the basic 45K school keep in mind that these schools charge for everything and with travel home and books you should easily plan on a couple thousand more each yr.</p>

<p>One point on Merit Aid, while its not a guarantee, many schools publish the average stats for merit awards and if you are on the high end of the scale you can be more confident. It depends on the school. There are schools like Lehigh and U of Del. that provide set money such as 11K to those in the top 10% or half tuition or more to the top 15%. One in 31 college grads in the US is a PENN STATE graduate so the alumni networking opportunites are there no matter where you go.</p>

<p>I don't think anyone that chooses to spend their money on an IVY education needs to be defensive nor do those that walked away from it need to justify their decisions. We are responding to the OP with discourse that has the underpinnings of the tense topic of "class". A generation or two ago one would only get admitted to some of these schools because of whom one knew and it may take a few more generations before there is a more egalitarian atmosphere. Most IVY types on this board offer intriguing, sensitive, and valuable input while others feel a need to put others down as "less than". No doubt a top level education offers a lot and the better graduates will not leave feeling superior to the 99.9% of Americans that go to the thousands of other fine schools.</p>

<p>entomom, thanks for the link to Evil_Robot's story!</p>

<p>Who wouldn't want to be around Evil Robot? What a story and thread. And the same for many of the IVY kids that returned to the board to share their wonderful experiences. It occurs to me that the type of people that choose friends or subordinates based on where they went to HS or college deserve one another and will have plenty of opportunities to be mutually impressed.</p>

<p>Just for fun, I decided to do some "fact checking" to see whether any alums from journalism "trade schools" such as Syracuse, Missouri, and others had gone on to rise above fact checker status. Imagine my surprise--Ted Koppel, Bob Costas, Marv Albert, and many other went to Syacuse (Newhouse), Lisa Myers, Russ Mitchell, and a host of high ranking editors at publications such as Time (Sonia Steptoe--second in command in the News Department), the NYT (the late Gerald Boyd, managing editor of the Times), the LA Times, KC Star, St. Louis Post Dispatch, etc. graduated from the Missouri School of Journalism, Carl Bernstein and Connie Chung had journalism degrees from the University of Maryland, Walter Cronkite and Dan Rather went to UT, etc. I guess you can do OK--maybe even as well as Anderson Cooper--if you go to a "trade school".</p>

<p>Sarcasm aside, the truth is that people become successful in any field through achievement and hard work no matter where they go to college.</p>

<p>true
a good friend of my daughters majored in either bio or psych at Reed, and had a job as a local AP journalist in Portland while he was still in school and once he got out of school he was transferred to regional and now I think he is in NyC/DC</p>

<p>another friend- this time high school of D, attended Occidental and is doing quite well as a reporter/producer for NPR out of DC</p>

<p>JOurnalism seems to be a field that isn't so dependent as some, as getting a degree from a certain school</p>

<p>All sarcasm aside, the fact checker comment came straight from a senior person at ABC News. I had to ask what one was.</p>

<p>To me the point is a lot of people doing the hiring clearly see the world this way. I was interested in journalism at Northwestern before seeking out opinions. When 3 respected, high ranking professionals all gave me identical advice, I had no reason to doubt them. I still don't.</p>

<p>And if I wanted to be an MD, I'd head to the cheapest good school. But we have to deal with reality and biases do exist and impact the world.</p>

<p>And dogs, does anyone believe there is any equality in education in this country?</p>

<p>It's funny how well intentioned many of these parents are, yet are very naive when it comes to understanding the future of the modern business world. We are moving towards a global meritocracy where skills rule, and b.s. pedigrees mean less and less. I simply know too many internet gurus w/o degrees who have made more than any of these Harvard types. Market forces don't care about who moved up a couple spots in the U.S. news rankings. I can sort of understand the argument about "fit," but come on, it's the future earnings power were worried about. The future value of 200k put into a small cap value fund yielding 14% annualized for 50 years will return $140,046,597 (imagine compounding debt at this rate). If you want to create generatonal wealth, teach your kids about saving and investing. Kicking things off with 200k in debt for the sake of bragging rights is not a great way to start. </p>

<p>BTW, i went to McGill for 2k/year....I don't think I'd have any extra oppurtunity had I gone to Georgetown instead.</p>

<p>wutangfinancial brings up an interesting point. I'm curious to know if any of you went to ivies or similar who think the education was not worth it.</p>

<p>wutangfinancial,</p>

<p>I know you'll find this hard to believe, but it's not always about money.</p>

<p>BTW, isn't McGill considered among the top universities in the world?</p>

<p>I'm curious to know if any of you went to ivies or similar who think the education was not worth it.</p>

<p>I don't know if anyone would say it "wasn't worth it". It comes down to fit still I think.
While I have peers, who have advanced degrees from Ivies, some even from more than one Ivy- which is always impressive to me- they helped their kids find smaller- still quite good- but schools that had more of an undergrad focus</p>

<p>My son is a NMSF ( and I think he has a very good chance to be a finalist) so he has been offered some very generous merit scholarship offers... only problem is most come from down South, we live in the Northeast and he doesn't want to go far from home.... all the talk about the "sunny warm weather" hasn't changed his mind. Any suggestions on schools that offer merit scholarships for engineering students that are located in the Northeast?
My opinion on the Ivy vs state school is much like many mothers on this board, I want my son to be happy wherever he goes.... his father on the other hand thinks anything less than an Ivy league school will be a disappointment.... I do think that if you are going to pay 40K a year in tuition and it is between an Ivy and another private college, I do think I would go with the name, all other things being equal.</p>

<p>Cooper Union, of course. RPI & Stevens. I know that pedigree is not important for job prospects in engineering.</p>

<p>Engineering is one area where I would NOT spend the money on an Ivy. I think you get a better education at a state u or engineering specialty school and have your "like-minded peers" built right in. My niece is very happy at Penn State in engineering and the Ivy programs just didn't measure up. Save the bucks.</p>

<p>McGill is more of a meritocracy; you don't get the same connections at mcGill you'd get at Wharton. I'm saying this is ultimately irrelevant anyways. You wanna meet rich people? Learn how to play golf. Get a good connection for coke. Get a deal on a good escort service. When trying to win over clients, these are the things that matter...moral integrity in Business???? please. No school can teach you how to move around vultures.</p>

<p>(please recognize the tongue in cheek nature of this post)</p>

<p>Wutang, finally someone else questioning the cult of "fit." Fit should mean practical things like, the school offers the major the kid says he is initially interested in, the price tag is within the familiy's budget for that kid's education, and the distance away from home is right (could be near or far, at either the parents' or student's insistence.) All the rest is like which fits best, a Ford or a Chevy, and is highly influenced by marketing messages, teenage moods, and "feelings" that no one can articulate.</p>

<p>The fit thing has always bothered me especially the way I see it used on this board.</p>

<p>If you can only see yourself fitting into 8 schools, you are going to have problems when school is over. Those that can adapt and then be successful at many schools are going to eat you for lunch in the real world.</p>

<p>DuckPondParent, it really depends on many factors and how important those factors are to the family and the student. For many families I know, if a kid gets into HPY, even if the finances are shaky, the family will do anything it can, to support the kid there. Any full rides anywhere are immediately ditched. This is reflected in the high yield these colleges have. As you go down the name recognition list, other factors start coming into play. The money factor starts becoming an issue when you have a school, that is not in the top 15 (or name your number as this is an individual threshhold that I just picked out of the air), but in , say, the top 50 of colleges. Is it worth it to pay $200K for BU when you get a full ride to Pitt? Yeah, you get Boston, but you can pay for an awful lot of Boston with that kind of money. UMichigan is a fine school, but is it worth the differential in cost if your kid gets a full at Umaryland or Penn State or UIllUrbana/Ch? It's a bit easier to justify the cost when it is a choice between a full ride between University of Southeast State which is primarily a commuter/suitcase U with a large population of part time and non traditional students with lots of adjunct profs, few dorms and weak liberal arts programs when your kids is interested in going the liberal arts route, and, say, schools like Syracuse, Fordham, Miami, etc. When you throw your state u into the mix with a cost somewhere between the free ride and the private cost, the decision starts getting difficult. Is the cost of Syracuse worth it vs the in state cost of say SUNY Buffalo? Now if the kid is really interested in a special program that the private school is well known for, that may tip the balance, but if both programs are pretty close in quality, and the student has no strong preference, that is when the price becomes important. Sometimes it is pretty clear that a kid does not belong in a particular school even if the major has a great rep there, and cost makes it a bargain. For example, some kids you just know will do better in a small school with a strong residential program without the TAs and large lecture halls and bureaucratic issues. A friend of ours who has always been a strong proponent of state schools, knew that her youngest was just not State U material because of some of the immaturity and weaknesses he had when he was 18. It just made for a less stressful experience for all when he went to a smaller college. Other times it is not clear, and many kids will do fine in either environment. </p>

<p>Though there are those who can be happy anywhere, there are kids that would have a better chance at success at certain types of schools. For those who are strong students and emotionally/mentally stable, there is a good chance of blooming whereever planted. But some kids just have special needs. They may not diagnosed or categorized into a special need category, but they just do not thrive in certain environments. It is a painful situation when you stick one of them into a college that just does not fit them. Certainly not worth the monetary savings.</p>

<p>But then true need has to take precedence. To sabotage the entire family's finances for the dream school of a kid, may not be a wise move. Everyone should be one on this decision if the repercussions of paying heavy tuition and taking big loans is going to be painful. But again, all terms are relative, in how they pertain to an individual family.</p>

<p>I doubt my son will get any free rides, but he will likely get something from one of our state schools where the tuition is already reasonably low. We are likely to have to weigh this situation against expensive private schools that seem to be better fits for him. We will have to make the determination as to whether the financial repercussions are going to be worth the advantages. There is no guarantee that sending him to an expensive LAC is going to result in success. There is some risk here. And every family who has finances in the picture has to weigh the situations.</p>

<p><a href="http://jobpundit.blogspot.com/2006_01_01_jobpundit_archive.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://jobpundit.blogspot.com/2006_01_01_jobpundit_archive.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>
[quote]
...men who entered a top-tier private college in 1982 will earn $2.9 million over a lifetime...and $1.7 million for men from one of the least-selective public institutions. (numbers are in 1997 dollars.)... "In many cases," she added, "even students who are offered a 'free ride' by a lower-ranked college would maximize their monetary worth by refusing the aid and attending the higher-ranked college."...</p>

<p>..."but it comes out awfully close to what you'd get in the stock market" if you invested the difference in price between a top college and a lesser state school.

[/quote]

Several people have argued that point, but it's irrelevant. Why? Find me that money, in a tangible form, to invest in the stock market. You can't. Unless your rich, or have a nice college trust fund anyway, and then it wouldn't matter as much. The money just isn't there for one to invest if they decide not to go. So stop treating it like that. But, if one decides to go, then the money is available as an investment in the student.</p>