<p>dzmtmom - welcome to CC. I believe that the 2 schools you mentioned are not at all safeties. I actually believe that any audition based program is not a safety. See the FAQ page, big list. Look at the "key" - it shows you the schools that are non-audition and the schools that are highly selective, taking very few of their applicants (marked with a +). You will see that both Emerson and Roosevelt have that + indication, of being highly selective.</p>
<p>Emerson is not a safety school. You must be accepted both academically and artistically in 2 distinct admissions processes. If you are not accepted academically, it doesn't matter what happens artistically. Many students who are accepted academically get rejected from the MT program. The MT program is also very selective. Students who are rejected have been known to be accepted at other programs that are highly selective, such as Tisch CAP 21. If you are going to visit Emerson, arrange specifically for a performing arts/Theatre tour. The general tour provides little info about the MT facilities.</p>
<p>dzmtmom....As many have mentioned, NO audition-based schools, particularly BFA in MT programs, should be considered a "safety" school. The admit rate at most BFA programs is between 2-10%. Hardly safe odds of admission. </p>
<p>There ARE, as I mentioned above, some BFA programs that are "easier" than others in terms of academic admissions (ie., Roosevelt is easier to get in academically than NYU or Emerson), and SOME BFA programs are "easier" artisitcally than others in the sense that the applicant pools tend to differ, even if they have low admit rates. They are not EASY to get into and not Safety schools. I gave some examples above. Artistically, for example, Ball State doesn't have the same applicant pool as Carnegie Mellon. So, in building a list of BFA schools, you want to balance the level of academic selectivity, and also balance the artistic selectivity which is harder to define. However, NONE are safeties. A safety would be a non-audition BA program which is ALSO an academic safety and even in THAT regard, one person's safety is not the same as another person's because it is in relation to each candidate's qualifications. For some kids, for example, Muhlenberg can be a safety and for many others, it is a reach, even though it does not have a required audition. </p>
<p>That said, Emerson is one of the more selective BFA programs drawing a national talent pool. It is hard to get into the school artistically and it is a selective school academically (about a 45% admit rate to the college itself). While Emerson is not one of the tippy top BFA in MT programs, it is still very difficult odds of getting in. When we are talking single digit admit rates, what happens is that a kid gets into UMich but not Syracuse, and another gets into Syracuse but not UMich. One gets in Emerson but not NYU/Tisch and another gets into NYU/Tisch but not Emerson. One gets into UMich but not Penn State. Another gets into Penn State but not UMich. One gets into CCM but not Syracuse. Another gets into Syracuse but not CCM. One gets into BOCO but not Ithaca. Another gets into Ithaca but not BOCO. I could go on but these are just a FEW REAL examples of my D's MT friends. So, Emerson is definitely not a school you can count on, and neither are any of the BFA programs, let alone more well known ones. </p>
<p>Roosevelt is not a safety. However, Roosevelt is academically safer than many BFA programs and is also easier than the top BFA programs artistically. It is a school that can round out a list of highly competitive academic and artistic BFA schools. But it is not a safety. I do know someone who got in and attends who was not qualified academically for some of the well known BFAs and who didn't get into some of the more well known BFAs with easier academics either. Still, not everyone gets in who applies. </p>
<p>Also, when discussing reach/match/safety academically, it is in relation to each student. Nobody could tell you on a message board which school is a safety because the term is not meaningful unless in relation to someone's qualifications. All BFA programs are very chancy odds. Add one or two non audition based BA programs, making sure at least one is an academic safety, if you want safety schools.</p>
<p>This has been a most valuable thread. Thanks to all who have participated, with a special nod to Soosievt who brings both valued professional expertise as well as the sensibility of a parent.</p>
<p>My D is a rising senior who this spring said out loud what we had long suspected, that she wants to pursue a BFA in MT. Thus, I have been lurking for some months trying to learn what I can from this thoughtful and helpful online community to help guide her. Well my D just returned from Mpulse and she is more fired up than ever. She loved the work, loved the kids, the instructors, the graduates and sees more than ever MT as her lifes calling. Ive also seen a jump in her confidence as she had to compete for admittance to Mpulse and then demonstrate at the program that she could run with the big dogs. </p>
<p>The discussion on this thread prompted us to develop a chart for schools she may be interested in applying to. As best we can, the chart takes into account both the academic selectivity of the college or university on one axis and the artistic selectivity of the MT program along the other. As you might imagine this places U Mich, CMU and NYU-T-CAP 21 at both the highest academic selectivity and highest artistic selectivity. Whereas, CCM places in the highest artistic selectivity but more in the middle of the pack academically. The goal is to a come up with a list of schools for my D to apply to that meet the reach, match, safety criteria both on the academic and artistic dimensions. Also were attempting to have enough schools in the mix that she will be accepted to find the right intangible fit. </p>
<p>Academic selectivity is relatively easy to find data on. For better or worse we chose to use the US News categories of Most Selective, Highly Selective, Selective, Less Selective and Not Selective. In order to get a sense of the artistic selectivity of these programs, it seems that knowing the number of students auditioning, the number accepted and the number attending would be helpful. I know, for example that for this years class at U Mich they auditioned approximately 500 students, extended offers to 24 to yield a class of 20. Large applicant pool, small number of offers, high percentage of students accepting equals highly selective/prestigious program. My question is this, short of calling each school and asking them for this data, is there a good source for this information? I recall in one of the threads some other programs were mentioned. Also are there other ways, besides the collective wisdom of this forum, that would help us better understand the relative artistic selectivity of these programs. Any help in this regard would greatly appreciated.</p>
<p>Ken,
It sounds to me that you are going about building your D's list the right way. Yes, it is easier to determine the academic selectivity and odds of admissions on that end than on the artistic end. You are correct about the harder academic BFA programs. UMiami is on the higher end as well. </p>
<p>As far as artistic selectivity, I know you are asking about the admit rate to the BFA programs as a way of determining its selectivity or prestige. But I don't think that will work in the same way as looking at the admit rate to colleges generally speaking might do. I say that because almost all the BFA programs tend to have an admit rate of between 2-10%. While an approx. 2% admit rate, for example at CMU is harder than an approx. 10% admit rate at BOCO, it is a bit negligable statistically speaking. Any school with an admit rate to its BFA program in the single digits is selective. So, most of the programs fit that rate. However, some schools that have an admit rate of 5% are "easier" (but not easy) than some other schools that have an admit rate of 5%. This is hard to define but the applicant pools differ from some schools to another. I always fear offending someone on a public message board and so don't like to give too many examples. But let's say, for example, that CCM or NYU has an admit rate in the single digits and so does Hartt or Point Park. If going by the admit rate alone, you could not tell. But CCM and NYU/Tisch are definitely harder to get into than Hartt or Point Park generally speaking artistically. The applicant pool may be stronger or draw from a more national pool. Or those who say, apply to both CCM and Point Park and are admitted to CCM, will often choose to matriculate at CCM and thus open up their slot at Point Park to someone else. That said, it is a tricky estimation. I say that because with such low admit rates, I have seen kids get into UMich but not Penn State, or NYU but not Emerson, or CCM but not Syracuse. So, the odds can be very unpredicatable. I do think if you read up a lot on the programs and talk to those in the field, you can get some idea of which programs are more renowned and to some degree with are more difficult, roughly speaking, artistically to get into. With my clients, I very roughly estimate some schools as being grouped as more selective artistically than others. There is no ranking. Someone can get into a top school like CCM but not Indiana, etc. But I think there are some schools that are more challenging to get into for their artistic selectivity in terms of the talent pool. I know some highly talented kids, for instance, who are now at well regarded BFA programs, who didn't apply to many of the lesser known programs talked about on this forum. Actually, my own child didn't either. There is an entire group of contenders who are not even in the applicant pool at some programs, which opens those programs up to others, making them relatively a bit less competitive (even though the admit rate doesn't tell the entire story). </p>
<p>I don't know your child's artistic credentials at all (I imagine she is talented if she got into MPulse though!), nor her academic ones and so can't help you in an individualized way but simply can say that if she is a contender for UMich, CMU, Tisch, etc., she could balance her list with some programs in another rough grouping such as Elon, Emerson, Penn State, or Ithaca and then there are some lesser known or possibly less competitive ones that are good such as Indiana, UArts, Hartt, Wagner or Marymount Manhattan that could round out a BFA list. I AM PULLING THESE OUT OF THIN AIR AND THEY ARE ONLY EXAMPLES OF GROUPINGS OF A BALANCE OF BFA PROGRAMS, AND ARE NOT NEARLY ALL THE POSSIBILITIES THAT COME TO MY MIND IN DIFFERENT RANGES OF ARTISTIC SELECTIVITY. Then, she may want to apply to a BA by audition school and a BA non audition school, where the latter is a safety academically as well. </p>
<p>I hope to see you participate more often. Welcome and good luck to your daughter as she begins this exciting journey.</p>
<p>PS...I forgot to add that finding out the number of applicants and the number accepted and the number they wish to yield at each program can often be found out either directly from the program or if you search threads on CC, most have been mentioned here at one time or another. Again, those numbers will all show very low admit rates and so that is not enough to go on in terms of balancing the artistic selectivity of the list.</p>
<p>Hi Ken!</p>
<p>And welcome to our little Corner of the world! We are a friendly bunch! You just had the wisdom of Soozie(and we all love and appreciate her more than we can ever say!!), so I decided to just add another parent perspective. </p>
<p>We also created a chart and I remember researching the same data you are seeking. Keep going! It can help! BUT......and this is a HUGE BUT...the numbers will not always tell the whole story. We found nearly every program in the single digit arena for admit rates. After our season, however, and meeting the kids I did, it seems like a lot of the decisions have to do with a look or a need or the primary focus the school has. As I was told, if they already have 2 or 3 petite blond sopranos, even Kristin Chenowith wont get accepted! It is a crazy process.</p>
<p>I think the best advice we got was to have a mix......top tier "everybody will die if they dont go there" schools and then some good solid programs with a reputation for getting graduates work. Decide if BFA or more BA is a better route and always have a non audition school or 2 handy (we were blessed not to have to apply to ours).</p>
<p>Good luck and keep reading CC (years of the wisdom of the crowds is here!)</p>
<p>MikksMom</p>
<p>Soozievt,</p>
<p>Thank you for your thoughtful response.</p>
<p>I realize that artistic selectivity is highly subjective, sometimes wrong and virtually impossible to quantify. Not to mention controversial. I also understand that great MT actors have come from unheralded programs and that many who graduate from well known schools never make it in the field. </p>
<p>As I pointed out to my D’s grandfather, who lives in Ann Arbor and is a big Michigan Football Fan, the MT program at U Mich is more selective than the football team – it has a smaller freshman class and is consistently in the top ten MT programs in the country, which cannot always be said about the football team. Once he got his head around this and the fact that there are more people playing in the NFL than acting on Broadway, you had an even prouder Grandpa at the Mpulse performance on Saturday. </p>
<p>While I can understand that it can be ticklish to name names so to speak, your examples were helpful and instructive. It was heartening to see that most of the names you named were on our list and we had categorized them in a similar fashion. Leads me to believe we’re not wildly off the mark. </p>
<p>One resource that helped immensely was a list that my D was given at Mpulse of the other schools that U Mich’s incoming MT class had applied to but either did not get in to or choose not to go to. If it is appropriate, I would be happy to post it here. Interestingly enough a couple of them my daughter had already crossed off her list because of a bad “feel” or “fit” or a program component she did not like. It made me feel like the system might actually work.</p>
<p>Another resource came from this board – the schools that last year’s Mpulse class is attending this year. Here’s the link to that thread:</p>
<p>[post] <a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=330471&page=2%5B/url%5D">http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=330471&page=2</a> [/post]</p>
<p>Thank you again for providing this incredible resource.</p>
<p>Mikksmom,</p>
<p>Thanks for your input as well. We are rapidly learning that my D who is a mezzo-belter, is not just going to be competing for one of the ten slots at a 20 student program has open for women but the one or two slots they have for a mezzo belt. Makes it clear why were being advised to apply to 8-12 schools.</p>
<p>Like many here we are grappling most not with identifying the top twenty programs but rather what are the unhearlded good schools and what constitutes a relativly sure thing for my D.</p>
<p>Again my thanks.</p>
<p>Ken, I think you've got this picture down well. My D also is a mezzo belter. And like Mikksmom says, you can't draw a conclusion when a kid doesn't get into one particular program that she/he doesn't have what it takes because with the very low admit rates, they have to turn away some kids who could conceivably meet their standard, but they also have to build a class of a variety of types. So, a girl who is a mezzo belt is not competing for every slot in the class but for the slots for that type. So, you have to look at the broad picture and if a kid has what it takes, usually he/she will get into at least one BFA program but you can't pinpoint which of these will be the one that says yes. It is hard to analyze too much as it is so subjective. My D has friends at UMich (clearly a top program) who did not get into Emerson or Penn State or Syracuse and she has friends at CCM and Tisch who did not get into UMich. I could give plenty of examples like this. The fact is, all these kids were appropriate contenders for a BFA program and got into several. </p>
<p>So, look widely, find ones that fit, be willing to look at some that may not seem ideal but you like enough to consider, include some back ups, and push forward. If you have a good assessment of your artistic talent, perhaps some benchmarks to go by, and have the academic qualifications to put you in the ballpark for the schools you are considering, and you apply to a balanced list, it usually works out to have some positive results. You can only go to one school. It is nice to have options. It is ideal to get into a first choice. I also advise to have several favorites and not pine away for one particular school. </p>
<p>Like you say, even kids at a top program like UMich didn't get into every school they applied to. That is why you can't put stock in one particular school and can't conclude something negative each time you get rejected because it is a unpredictable which schools will take you, even IF you have what it takes to be admitted. </p>
<p>One piece of advice for your D which I am sure MPulse told her, is to sing one song showcasing her mezzo belt but also include a contrasting song showing her legit voice.</p>
<p>Soozie, Mikksmom,</p>
<p>Thanks for your help and input. As soon as my D finishes band camp (she is the drum major--proud papa moment!) we will be foucusing in on college apps and will have many more questions for the board. Thanks so much for this resource. We'd be lost with out it!</p>
<p>Ken</p>
<p>Hi Ericsmom,</p>
<p>Thank you for the suggestion. My D has not so great test scores, but very good GPA, (and strong skills, especially singing), so we are hoping that auditions will help offset the lower test scores. She is also retaking the ACT to try to bting them up. I'd love to see the list you mention, but cannot find the "big list" or "key" page. Please help, as I am still trying to figure out how to find my way around on his site.</p>
<p>dzmtmom, here is a link to the Frequently Asked Questions site, and you will see the Big List listed on the left. </p>
<p>NMR</p>
<p>I am not familiar with MT admissions at all, so my voice here is just a tiny peep. I did want to mention that my son's close friend applied to many programs and had success only at the program that was academically well beneath her talents (Adelphi). However, their MT program is highly selective, and since academics play a small role in her plans she was thrilled. She did become frustrated from explaining why she'd choose a school many considered so "beneath" her talents. (Boo! Snobs!) An extra benefit is that her excellent academic credentials earned her a free ride for four years, including room and board.</p>
<p>Admittedly, I don't know much about Adelphi's programs but they offer a BFA in Theater, NOT in Musicaal Theater. It is not one of the more well known or highly selective BFA programs in Acting, to be honest, though I am sure it must be good. It is not on the radar for top talented kids seeking BFA programs and never seems to be mentioned on the MT Forum or the Theater/Drama thread in the Arts Majors forum. </p>
<p>However, you make a very good point that can be generalized....and that is....many fine BFA programs, and highly selective ones, are often located in universities that are not as selective or academically challenging. When a student is seeking a BFA program, they have to go where the programs are located, and those schools are a different list of schools than the student would normally consider academically, particularly very strong students. The general public doesn't understand this; you're right. If I had told someone my D was worried about getting into Penn State or Ithaca, for example, they would say, "she'd have NO problem getting into those schools!" and of course, academically, these were very much safety schools in her case. But the general public has no idea that to get into the BFA programs at these schools is about a 5% admit rate! </p>
<p>But in any case, thanks for bringing Adelphi to our attention! The point you made is a good one generally as well. It is the BFA program that is so selective and not ALWAYS the college itself (though exceptions exist and actually my own child ideally preferred a more academically selective university if she could possibly get into a BFA one situated in such a college setting....and I know a bunch of kids who are very good students who feel similarly).</p>
<p>I don't know much these days about Adelphi. I knew a couple of people who got BFAs there years ago along with Jonathan Larson (I'm surprised you didn't know that's where Jonathan went, Susan! ;)) but that was back in the days of Jacques Burdick running the department. He was excellent and well-respected but he left not long after Jonathan graduated and I'm not sure what the program is like now. I know that, back then, if Jacques hadn't been there, many kids would have transferred out.</p>
<p>AlwaysAMom....LOL....I'm not a Jonathan Larson expert by any means. It is my daughter who has studied him since she was young. She happens to be home at the moment, a rarity, and I just asked her, having read your post, "do you know which college Jonathan Larson went to?" She did, of course. But not moi! She is saying they created a MT program for him when he was at Adelphi. I just know that currently, the university doesn't offer a degree in MT, but just a BFA Theater, and is not one I know of anyone applying to (but obviously people do!)</p>
<p>I was just kidding you about knowing that! :) I knew your D would know. Actually, Adelphi didn't really create a MT program for him. His degree was a straight drama BFA but what did happen there is that he continued to write (just like a couple of kids you and I know!), and he began to compose music. He'd always been an excellent musician, as a lot of theatre kids are, and ultimately he had to make the decision whether he wanted to be an actor or a composer. And the rest is history, as they say.</p>