SAT scores: what to do about this math gap?

Colleges & Universities A-Z Princeton University
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<p>My D plans to apply to Princeton Class of 2014, with the Woodrow Wilson School as the ultimate goal. She’s definitely not a math/science person, and that’s reflected in her lopsided SAT scores. I’d appreciate some input on whether she ought to retake Math II or even the SAT reasoning test. She’s assuming she must retake the Math II, but I’m not so sure, especially given the recent postings that say P will now require only 2 subject tests.</p>

<p>Hope this isn’t too tedious, but I’ll lay out all the data:</p>

<p>SAT Subject tests: Literature 780, US History 750, Math II 650</p>

<p>SAT reasoning - took this as a trial run before opting to focus on the ACT: 2120/ CR 770, M 620, W 730 (9 E)</p>

<p>ACT with writing: 35 composite (E 35, M 33, R 36, S 34, essay 8). The score correlates to around 1560 SAT for CR+M, and 690 for SAT Writing, thanks to the low essay grade. </p>

<p>Her transcript will be strong, but she’s gotten B+ grades consistently in math classes so that will appear as a weakness despite the extreme rigor of her high school. She’s currently debating whether to continue on with Calculus as a senior, or take Statistics instead. (any advice on that?)</p>

<p>To compound the lopsidedness, her 2 teacher recs will be from English and History teachers, and both should be excellent. Her math and science teachers like her well enough, but she feels like the English and History teachers better know her strengths in writing and analysis.</p>

<p>So… given this profile, what option would you recommend?</p>

<li><p>Send ACT and Lit + History scores (assuming P moves to the 2-test requirement)</p></li>
<li><p>Send ACT + all 3 subject tests (assuming 3 are required).</p></li>
<li><p>Retake Math II and hope to get it up to 700, and send that along with ACT and Lit+ History.</p></li>
<li><p>Ignore the Math II, but retake the SAT reasoning to see if it’s good enough to submit as a supplement to the ACT score. She could probably do quite a lot better on this, since she’s now had some experience with studying and taking the exams. Still, with a 35 ACT, it may be goofy to retake the SAT. You can attribute this question to a nagging doubt about whether ACT is really as strong as SAT in the minds of the admissions officers. Reassurance, anyone?</p></li>
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<p>We know tests aren’t everything, but it would be a shame to be thwarted by a situation that has a relatively simple solution. She’s a kid with great EC’s (8 varsity letters, 2-sport captain, lots of service and other community involvement), and would love to have a shot at Princeton.</p>

<p>Thanks for any input you can offer.</p>

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<p>First off, your daughter’s scores truly are excellent. What might influence your decision is that Princeton will indeed only be requiring 2 SAT subject tests as of next year. I was told this by an admissions officer when I visited the campus.</p>

<p>That being true, I’d suggest option 1 (submitting that <em>incredible</em> 35 composite ACT along with the Literature and US History subject tests.)</p>

<p>She’s set as far as standardized testing goes.</p>

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<p>faux: I know a young man currently in the Princeton Class of 2011/Woodrow Wilson School that could be your daughter’s clone…almost exact same profile statwise…his shot at Princeton was not influenced by his math stuff, but he did have amazing EC’s in the area of history…</p>

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<p>She should take Calculus. Statistics is largely not taken seriously (for example, it is the only AP test that MIT doesn’t give credit for) and Calculus is much more challenging.</p>

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<p>OP / Fauxnom:</p>

<p>I am fascinated by your post. It is virtually MY daughter to a “T” (though she’s music instead of athletics…only athletic is outside of school…equestrienne). She USED to like math. First place math bowl team, 6th in state in above level math testing, etc. But it’s just not her thing now, and she is being forced to take calculus in her senior year. </p>

<p>Her SAT II scores are pretty much EXACTLY your daughter’s, though her SAT is 2210 as a Junior 740, 740, 730…but also had a poor essay (8 of 12). Took ACT June 13 but it was standby so no score yet.</p>

<p>So…We’re having the same “retake math 1 or take math 2 or …?” because she’s also looking at Harvard and/or Oxford…so she needs THREE great SAT II scores.</p>

<p>My real question of you is this…I don’t really think my D has a chance at an Ivy…due to her class rank. She switched schools midyear and had a disastrous semester that pulled her from top 1-2% at her old school to 7.5% at new school. When I enter her stats in the Academic Index (I know…I know…it’s not everything)… it’s an epic failure. Not even competitive. And I KNOW, that the “first shuffle” of 20,000 or 30,000 applications is ONLY a numbers game. So, I just don’t think she’ll make it past that first look because of the one bad semester (C+, some Bs…NOT good). And she’s at a very competitive though not top tier/private school. She’ll have 9 high scoring A/Ps…but that’s very common here. I can’t imagine an Ivy would dig that far down in rank when they have SO much to look at within the top 1%. </p>

<p>My question is… is your daughter’s class rank pretty high, or do you think that’s not a factor? (When using AI…I could only get my D up to a “9” of 9 by placing her in the top 3 kids in a class of 800 with these same scores you and she have). I can’t decide if she should go forward with the applications. A lot of stress/hassle/time/money. </p>

<p>Luck to your daughter with her future tests.</p>

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<p>Thanks for those responses! It’s nice to hear that at least a couple people don’t think the mediocre math is a fatal flaw. More opinions are welcome.</p>

<p>To R124… I feel your pain! It’s hard to know whether to encourage a kid to go for those super reaches. In my D’s case, the 35 ACT is what makes me think she should at least give it a shot, because the Woodrow Wilson school is a perfect fit for her interests, and Princeton would be so right for her in many other ways (size, location, faculty strengths, traditions…). Another reason I’m encouraging her to apply is that Princeton disregards ninth grade, and my D has a very strong upward trend in her grades. Her high school is obsessed with grade deflation, and will not even calculate a GPA for the colleges, let alone class rank. But P has accepted quite a few kids from there, so presumably they understand how to read the transcript. While the lack of a class rank makes it hard to predict her chances, at least it doesn’t give a college a reason to deny admission automatically. </p>

<p>With your D, it seems like her class rank is still quite respectable (isn’t top 10% pretty good at a competitive school?) and her test scores would put her solidly in the running. I’d be worried about a C, though a few B’s don’t seem like a deal-breaker. My sense is that the overall picture that comes through her recs and essays would be very important for someone who is basically admissible, and it will help if there aren’t 25 other kids from her school applying to P. Can she contact the equestrian coach and get recruited? That would be the simplest solution :slight_smile: The only advice I can offer you is to help her understand that an application to P or Harvard is really a long-shot even with a great record like she has, and she has to be prepared for rejection. I feel awful for the kids who apply to every elite school just to increase their odds; sure, some of them will win the lottery, but so many of them will be rejected - repeatedly. That’s tough to handle. But it sounds like your D is not going to opt for the scatter-shot approach. </p>

<p>I hope to see you around the Princeton board; good luck with the decisions!</p>

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<p>Are you allowed to choose which SAT II scores you send nowadays? If so, have your daughter take Math I (yes, I said Math I) and then send that, Lit, History, and the ACT. (I personally sent the aforementioned tests, plus the SAT Reasoning, but I don’t think it really matters which one you send - I just sent the SAT I and the ACT because I performed at roughly the same level on each one and wanted to “confirm” to them that the scores were indicative of my ability).</p>

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<p>I’d personally advise against Math I, because the scale on it is really really tough. You have to work really really fast on it and be very accurate to do well. The actual questions aren’t as hard, but you have to do better on it compared to Math II to get a comparable score. If you are allowed to choose which ones to send (I forget), I guess there’s no harm in trying!</p>

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<p>Princeton allows score choice, which is great in this situation. But every time she retakes a test or adds a new one, there are several other colleges on her list that insist on seeing those scores. So, she wants to be careful about just taking a flyer. I’ve also heard Math I can be tricky, but have also assumed it might create more stigma than a low-ish score on Math II.</p>