I know that Harvard said that they are optional, but is there any point to them? Harvard says (https://college.harvard.edu/admissions/apply/application-process/sat-subject-tests) that they are useful for placement purposes and for a student whose first language isn’t english, but for someone whose first language is english, is there a point to them? I mean… I know that Harvard isn’t going to take a student SOLELY for his sat 2 scores (because of the holistic process of admission)… So basically, is there really any benefit given from taking SAT 2’s?
I’m not sure how Harvard is evaluating applications from students who don’t submit SAT Subject Tests, as Admissions in the past seems to have placed GREATER emphasis on academic-related tests like SAT Subject Tests, AP Tests and IB Tests OVER the SAT/ACT itself: http://thechoice.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/09/11/harvarddean-part2/
So the benefit would seem to be three-fold:
- If Harvard does indeed value SAT Subject Tests more than the ACT/SAT itself, taking and submitting several SAT Subject Tests might be a plus factor for a student with a moderate to low ACT/SAT score. And, in the Academic Index calculation, equal weight seems to placed on the SAT/ACT and two SAT Subject Tests. I'm not sure how Harvard is making their AI calculation without a student's 2 SAT Subject Test these days: http://www.collegeconfidential.com/academic_index/
- Taking the SAT Subject Test would confirm the accuracy of your transcript grade in that subject. This would be especially helpful for Admissions if a student was home schooled or attends a very small school that isn't on Harvard's radar and hasn't sent a single kid to an Ivy League school ever. Taking several SAT Subject tests would demonstrate that your school is teaching the curriculum accurately and that your high school doesn't have grade inflation. For example, scoring a 750+ on SAT Subject Test in Math II would confirm that your transcript grade of A in math is accurate and that you do indeed understand the material.
- Taking an SAT Subject test in a foreign language and scoring 700+ would exempt that student from Harvard's foreign language graduation requirement: http://static.fas.harvard.edu/registrar/ugrad_handbook/current/chapter2/language_requirement.html
Speculating Part 2 of your answer, because isn’t that what AP tests are for, and if so, is there a point to the sat subject test? And from what I’ve heard (from my admission officer named Tim), Standardized testing is only one part of the application, and it’s only used to ensure that a student will be able to handle the workload of the university… If Harvard already has that information (700 on each section), why do they need more? I understand why for someone who wants to major in biology, taking a bio SAT 2 would benefit the person application, but for someone who wants to major in a Humanity, would it “enhance” the application
Point 3 has nothing to do with admissions, but I completely understand that… IDW to replace my language req because I want to study abroad and I believe thats the best way to learn a language…
Part 1 I dont really get… I mean I understand where your coming from, but I don’t get how that applies to the application process.
BTW @gibby , just a side Q, would a 95 average be a 4.0, and should I write on my commonapp (95) or (4.0 or whatever it is on that scale)?
You’re correct, both AP and SAT Subject tests are curriculum based tests and do pretty much the same thing. Some high schools have eliminated AP classes though, so for those kids the only option is SAT Subject Tests. Other high schools, like Stuyvesant, recommend that students not taking an AP class take the SAT Subject test at the end of the year – which is why someone like my son and daughter applied to college’s with 6 AP tests and 6 SAT Subject tests, all of them in different subject areas. Although testing is just one part of the applications process, the college office at Stuyvesant feels the more data points you can provide with top test scores, the better off you will be.
With regards to part 1, I’m not sure what you don’t get. I’ll use my son and daughter as an example. Submitting 12 curriculum based tests, all with top scores, all of them in different subject areas, probably took on more weight for them than their SAT/ACT score. It’s impressive. It’s saying to an Admissions Committee, look I just didn’t study hard for a 3 hour test I took on one Saturday morning, I busted my tookus for 3 straight years and aced every national standardized test they could through at me. I’m a wiz at taking tests, I belong at your high end college filled with bright kids who are great at taking tests.
With regards to your GPA: Write down whatever is on your transcript. DO NOT TRANSLATE the grade or GPA. The Common App gives you several options with pull-down menus. For example. “My school calculates GPA based upon a 4.0 scale, 4.5 scale, 5.0 scale etc. Or, My school calculates my GPA on a 1-100 scale.” If your transcript says 95, write down 95 and select the 1-100 scale.
I understand what the college office at Stuyvesant means, but the admissions officer at Harvard told me that as long as you score over 700 on each section your standardized test scores are no longer the central focal point of your application. They have done their part and are no longer needed for evaluating a students potential to handle the academic rigor of the university. And addressing the first part of your answer, If I have AP’s, do I need SAT subject tests?
With regards to your answer regarding my question part 1. If that was the case, then why did they make them optional?
But a 95 doesn’t look as good as a 4.0. I mean… a 95 is pretty bad for Harvard. @gibby
https://college.harvard.edu/admissions/apply/application-process/sat-subject-tests
Harvard made SAT Subject tests optional because those tests cost additional money and some student’s can’t afford them. However, if you have AP’s on your transcript, you are basically saying to Harvard “Yes I can easily afford AP tests, but I just don’t want to spend the money on SAT Subject Tests, or I have no desire to take them.” Truthfully, I’m not sure how that will go over in the Admissions Office.
FWIW: My personal belief – and I have no proof whatsoever – Harvard is no longer requesting SAT Subject tests hoping to make it easier for more students to apply to the college. The increase in the number of applications they receive will drive down their yield and make them appear more selective than Stanford. It’s a game that all colleges play, and I think Harvard is playing that game. If that’s what Harvard is up to, it might not hurt an applicant when they can afford the tests, but don’t submit them. But again, this is pure speculation on my part.
A 95 is an A. Student’s should not translate their grade of 95 into a 4.0 to make it appear better. Besides, Admissions is going to go by whatever grade is on your transcript, not by what the student writes down. And a student wants their application to be in sync with the material that comes directly from their high school. When a high school transcript says one thing, and the Common Application says another, it might make an AO question the applicant’s integrity. So, I would suggest you write down EXACTLY what is on your transcript.
Very interesting discussion about SAT subject tests. At my D’s school, they downplay the SAT subject tests and the attitude seems to be that you only need to take two or three at the most. I’ve seen people say the same thing on threads here on CC. But I’ve been to a few presentations by outside college counselors and they all seem to echo the advice of the Stuyvesant college counselor, namely that strong scores on SAT 2s can show admissions offices at competitive colleges that you perform well in a variety of subjects and also confirm high grades in your transcript.
A question on your personal belief. If that is the case (given your theory sounds plausible), then would it be possible to get in without Subject tests?
As for the first part, can’t I just say that I feel that the AP tests show my demonstrated academic excellence in a greater sense than the subject tests?
OK… BTW Where does an A+ start? @gibby
@uesmomof2, Even though I believe what your saying is plausible… I must interject and say that grades are more than performance. Grades are a combination of performance in the classroom, behavior, and “activeness” (home work on time and things of that sort). In my AP Euro class, the second highest performing kid has a 90, but his scores are not at that level… He simply does all the homework, behaves, and score decently well for an AP class (85s). This cannot be reflected on an SAT 2. I really think that College confidential places WAAYYYYY too much emphasis on test scores. I know that there is NOOO way for a student to get into harvard with a <2100… But you have people on here who say “OMG YOU GOT A 2350… TAKE IT AGAIN YOUR LIFE IS OVER”. The SAT and the SAT 2s are used simply to determine whether or not you can handle the rigor of the school. When I went to model UN, I met 2 kids who are going to Harvard next year, one had a 2160 (granted he was hispanic, and gay(not sure if that is a hook)) and the other one had a 2120 (she was a white girl from Dalton HS)… Im not trying to mitigate the SAT or the SAT 2s, but I mean, it’s not all that colleges take into account.
Sure, I could easily envision a scenario where a student, such as Liz Murray or Dawn Loggins – both of whom were homeless when they applied to Harvard – were accepted without SAT subject tests.
But, I could also imagine a scenario where a child from Chappaqua, Scarsdale, or the Upper East Side of Manhattan, who’s family had the resources to afford SAT Subject tests, but the student just didn’t take them for whatever reason, to be denied from the college because their application lacked the SAT Subject tests. And the lack of the SAT Subject test in that case showed an indifference to the college process or a feeling of superiority, as in “I’m such a wonderful student and I don’t really need to send you any SAT Subject tests, like the majority of other students who are beneath me must submit to your college.”
Much would depend on the family’s financial situation and if the student qualified for a fee waiver for the Common Application. Bottom line: if your family is NOT applying for financial aid, and you don’t take any SAT Subject tests, I would imagine that might take you down a few pegs, at least in the eyes of the Admissions Committee.
@gibby, my family makes less than 30k a year… I don’t think that there is any way that I won’t apply for FA.
In that case, I imagine Harvard Admissions would easily accept the fact that your family did not have the resources available for you to take the test, and would move on.
@gibby , I thought admissions doesn’t know your financial situation , so would I have to specify ? And don’t I get a fee waiver
Are you sure that the girl from Dalton with the 2120 was not legacy and/or legacy plus development? This is a serious question. At schools like Dalton, Trinity, etc., many of the kids who get into Harvard and other Ivies are legacies. According to the Common Data Set, both of the kids you met at Model UN have scores on the low end for Harvard. http://oir.harvard.edu/files/huoir/files/harvard_cds_2013-14.pdf Scores are not everything and clearly grades and course rigor are more important but I think it is not uncommon for unhooked applicants to Harvard and other top schools to submit more than the 2 recommended subject tests.
I listened to a webinar tonight by an outside college consultant based in Boston and he said that kids applying to the Ivies and comparable schools tend to take more SAT subject tests than the 2 that are required.
@Verizonwireless: The Common Application has specific instruction on how to obtain a fee waiver: https://appsupport.commonapp.org/link/portal/33011/33013/Article/758/Common-App-Fee-Waiver. When you apply for a fee-waiver, I believe college admissions offices know as you will not be paying their application fee.
Thats not what I meant. I meant, don’t I get a fee waiver which covers the cost of my sat 2? And also, how would Harvard know my financial situation (aside from me bringing it up in my essay)
Fee waivers for SAT Subject tests are not automatically given. You need to apply for them through your guidance counselor, just the same as the SAT: https://sat.collegeboard.org/register/sat-fee-waivers.
Admissions won’t know you received a fee waiver for the SAT or SAT Subject test, and you shouldn’t waste the time on your essay to talk about it, as often times, when student’s mention the issue, it can come off as a “sob-story.” That’s something your guidance counselor might want to mention in their Secondary School Report.
Hi! I got into Harvard without submitting SAT subject tests 
I’m a first generation.
@kryptonian CONGRATS! Whats your sat score and ecs (if you dont mind me asking)? And are you a URM? BTW FWIW, am I technically first gen (mom went to college when I was 6 and dad didnt go?)
I didn’t take subject tests either, although I’m not first generation. o: The reason I didn’t take them is because my school doesn’t offer any APs, so I didn’t feel like I was strong enough in any specific subject that I should test for. (plus I’m a few hours away from the nearest testing center.)