<p>Glad to hear, EK that the college has recognized & rewarded the gem they have in your daughter. We are hoping other schools will similarly recognize the extraordinary effort it takes for kids who have to overcome adversity & work so much harder than their peers, just to function. It's too bad that CB has not been responsive to many pupils. I believe the GC addressed adversity overcome by students for those who requested it of him in his college recs for them. To me, it is a testiment to the strength of these kids & they sure have a lot to teach their peers about not letting obstacles stop learning.</p>
<p>fair enough, EK. (Your post #40) But there's an "out" for the colleges in that. I accept that it's more expensive, & thus "consequential," if you will. But there's nothing preventing a college from applying Enrollment Management, just as they do with F.A. candidates & with families of varying estimated degrees of wealth/ability to donate. It's a matter of perceived value to the college: They will spend, to a degree, on a candidate they believe is worth it. So they can admit or deny a student with F.A. need or L.D. need -- both being costly to the college in major or minor level. It's the initial look that is all I'm asking for: just as minorities in the '60's did not want "special privileges" but EQUALITY of opportunity. Equality of opportunity in the reading & evaluation rounds -- & assuming that the college list will be composed of programs & institutions matching the student's demonstrated ability & matching the institutions' relevant support services. (As with non-LD'ers, it's up to us parents to help guide the creation of that list to reflect such realities, of course!)</p>
<p>I'm sure it's too much to expect that the various admissions officers now reading this board incognito will stop already with concentrating on unearthing who deceptively got into their precious college, but direct their energy toward something constructive & meaningful & intellectual, like "getting LD-religion." You can be smart & report back to your administrations on the frustrations & denials we have experienced, or you can wait for a messy class action lawsuit against CB.</p>
<p>I talked to a psychologist who said that the main reason students don't get accommodations is because they can't prove that their children need them on the CBs. The documentation must be excellent. You need quality testing. If the school district evaluation isn't complete enough, you may have to pay for outside testing to get a thorough evaluation. If you have quality documentation, they should not be able to deny accommodations.</p>
<p>well both my kids have testing from educational psychs
my oldest daughters was paid from ins- but we paidout of pocket for her sisters- in 2004 so I suppose I will have to get her retested next year.
This is discriminatory though- because it is very expensive of course to have private testing done- families who can barely scrape together college application fees are going to have a huge burden if they have to come up with $1,000 for testing.
But the public school testing was a joke- diagnosed as "specific learning disability" not really any indication of what that meant or what she needed for accomodations, which is why I finally plunked down the money for the private testing after fighting with the school and district for years to find out more about what her difficulties were. I feel bad about not doing it earlier, but since she did have an IEP, I felt that the school district should at least attempt to serve her.</p>
<p>I assure you that our documentation was over-the-top in abundance and quality, done by a worldclass neuropsychologist with extensive credentials. This same documentation was accepted IN THE PAST by three high schools and the College Board itself. It was ALSO accepted by ACT and by our state flagship, where son took college courses.</p>
<p>But it is TRUE that CB said kid did not need the requested accommodation --a computer for dysgraphia. After three appeals, they finally did give him an accommodation that was useless about three days before the test: extra time. Anyone who insists a child with dysgraphia should accommodate with extra time instead of a computer only for writing is severely incompetent, motivated by politics, or subject to forces I could not begin to fathom. Your psychologist is misinformed of what happens in some school districts to some children.</p>
<p>CB does deny because they state child does not need the accommodation --perhaps they even believe it, although I find it hard to believe. But when these assessments are contradicted by so many with expertise just as great, something is very wrong. </p>
<p>Whether through incompetence or intent, what results is discrimination against the learning disabled.</p>
<p>We were very lucky. I just got the OT to update her report on my son's terrible handwriting and submitted the high school and college IEP and other accommodations documentation. He got to use a computer for AP essays and SAT II Writing (would have gotten this for SAT I written portion, but his timing for testing was just under the wire.)</p>
<p>I agree that it is outrageous for you to be denied with this diagnosis. I would have the neurologist call the most senior CB executive that you can reach and continue to complain - also get your lawyer to send a letter. </p>
<p>Class action suits are a great idea, but the population is transient - you would have to prove damage, and most people lose interest a year or two after the fact. But not me - I'll get out my shotgun (theme of the day) and help you!</p>
<p>well --I guess I too am a transient. Kid took the ACT, where he had the accommodation. Did well.</p>
<p>Many great points, issues, etc. have been brought up in this thread. As a 20 year public School Psychologist I live these same questions daily. And often we must remind parents that there is a difference between "need" and "want". "Need" is what the student MUST have to be sucessful. It is not what the student must have to get a 3.9 instead of a 3.6 or a 1350 instead of a 1200 on the SAT. Yes the student should have a computer if his handwriting is so poor that the rater wouldn't be able to read it. The use of the word "disability" has become grossly over and mis used. A disability should be to a level that "substantially limits learning". Many feel that the school district isn't "helpful" and that outside evaluators find out "what's really wrong with my kid". Well for what you have to pay they feel that they'd better find something wrong...it's good business. In addition I could test 100 people off the street and in 80% of the cases find learning weaknesses" however the vast majority would not meet the standard of "substantial limitation" to their ability to learn. It is not enough to have a testing profile that says your child has a "disability" it must be evident by their actual school performance. Yes they may have to work harder than the average student, yes they may lose some points for being disorganized and failing to turn things in however this does not automatically make it a "disability". The office of Cival Liberties has declined to define "substantial limitation" .....judges in court cases have defined it as the inability to pass from one grade to the next. As you can see we've gotten a long way from the original intent. So if some of you out there feel you're not getting cooperation from your school it may be that we are very bogged down with kids we are doing everything we can for to graduate from high school...if your kid gets fair to good to excellent grades it doesn't mean we don't care abouit them it just means that they do not meet the ctriteria for Special Education. Sorry if this came off as a rant, but constantly being told we're not doing enough can get to you after awhile (20 years)!!!</p>
<p>Csdad:</p>
<p>I will grant you that the term disability gets overused by the untrained, half-trained, etc., that the condition of, or even one aspect of, LD can become "abused," manipulated, etc., by a family, and also that the term "Differences" is often confused or overlapped with "Disability." (Sometimes used interchangeably, sometimes not.) I totally think this is all because this is still an area, or an area of a field, about which there is very new information as well as new public awareness. It's an area of great flux, & I'm sorry for the frustrations, both recent & past, you have been subjected to. Even 20 yrs may seem like a long time, but in areas like medicine & education, this is actually a very short time, as I'm sure you're aware. (And remember that many of us are educators, too.) And just in the last 5-7 yrs., there's been a sea-change of awareness & recognition, both by families & professionals. (The legitimate stuff, not the abuse.) </p>
<p>I don't, however, interpret the experiences of the parents on this thread, or the parents on previous threads in PF and in CC's College Admissions Forum, as reflective of parents/students wanting a legitimate or illegitimate boost from a 3.6 to 3.9, or a 1200 to a 1300. I see them as pleas sometimes for accommodation in a single area which will <em>better</em> (but certainly not perfectly) even the playing field for college admissions. Remember, it is the <em>colleges</em> who are requiring the focus on an initial, quantitative entrance bar to the very first review of a student's application. We didn't set these rules, & many of us have argued passionately against the SAT for absolutely years (yours truly, agst. the SAT as a litmus test LONG before LD became obvious in my own D). Remember, too, as you undoubtedly know, that the compensated LD'er who is extremely bright is often the hidden LD'er whose problems never come to full light until these critical h.s. yrs which are make-or-break for college admissions.</p>
<p>Many, many thoughtful parents on CC who do not have LD sons or daughters have argued for a more holistic, less numbers-driven, less frenzy-driven college admissions process. Much of the reason for the frenzy, aside from the population consideration, is that colleges refuse to alter their very timetables. Sure, if I were they, & had a brief period for review of applications (as described by admissions offices), I also would have to establish a somewhat brutal & rapid procedure for elimination. But has it occurred to the colleges that there are many other, more creative alternatives? For example, if there were an "LD-check box" top of app. (like an F.A. checkbox), those apps could get put aside to be read separately by a subcommittee in admissions during the initial reads. Just as fin.aid applicants cannot be summarily dismissed for having the gall to ask for f.a., neither could the LD apps be summarily dismissed for revealing a 400 on an SAT segment with a 3.8 GPA. That subcommittee would recommend yes or no on those applicants based on the degree of overall or particular accomplishment (esp. relative to the degree of accommodation -- which for my D will be a big fat Zero in accomm.), based on drive, etc. Those applications then get mixed right in with the whole pool for the secondary reads. I don't see why that's asking for a lot, sir, I really don't.</p>
<p>I also want to re-emphasize my support of EK's excellent point about the money issue, for colleges. We accept that it is more expensive, & I support every college using its limited money as it knows it can & should. No guarantee of outcomes here. Merely a hope for <em>consideration</em>. I was one of the parents supporting the reality of Enrollment Management, as colleges are both businesses & academies, & need to stay within budget to continue to exist & to provide finan. aid where possible. </p>
<p>I see this as definitely more than just a personal issue. As an educator, I am concerned with the loss to society of students who may be left with a college far beneath their ability, which will neither inspire them nor test them -- due <em>merely</em> to college admissions requirements & some test which has almost nothing to do with their innate & demonstrated ability. And again, I am talking about the extremes here, not the slight variations. I could not agree with you more that we all have our inborn limitations, different learning styles (another term that gets confused with "disability"). We must all "compensate" in some way & make our own accommodations in areas of our weaknesses, whether in our academic or professional or personal lives. But let's not muddy the waters here, because I really think these parents are not being petty.</p>
<p>While some parents in this thread may have students legitimately qualified for Brown, etc., my child will probably not be, nor will any Ivy or high-powered LAC probably be the place for her --with or without SAT & college accommodation! That is because for her, the student academic intensity at upper tiers will push her into a competitive arena she will not be able to keep up with, given her LD. To keep up with her peers, she will try to deny her LD. But she could do fabulously at some very selective LAC's, etc. I can guarantee you they will dismiss her app. summarily at these places when they see a 400 SAT score. People with 400 scores generally end up at community colleges. Wonderful. I'm sorry, I just don't think this is acceptable. Sorry for the rant.
:0(</p>
<p>epiphany ,</p>
<p>Great post! I agree you must take every case individually. I have seen it go your way where a kid can't get into schools that I know they could succed at, but I've seen it go the other way also. We had a student a number of years ago who as a junior was classified as LD in reading. I was not working at the high school at the time and after reviewing the case I felt he was not LD. However his mother pressured, the CSE caved and he got classified. Next he gets "tests read" on his IEP which again I felt wasn't appropriate. The kid has a 100 IQ but gets over 1200 on the old SAT with it being read...very strange. This score gets him into a pretty good LAC which he leaves after one semester because he's in over his head. I see some very strange things from outside evaluations such as kids with 110 verbal IQ's but diagnosed with an expressive language disorder. My own dauhgter had a 132 verbal but only a 100 nonverbal IQ as a youngster this led to difficulty with math. We knew that she would have to work hard in math and that probably C's in high school math classes would be a reality. This did become a reality and because of it her GPA & SAT scores weren't quite good enough to get into some schools...however she was accepted at a number of "mid level" schools and we are happy. In the vast majority of cases kids get into schools they belong at.</p>
<p>I agree that LD students who have average ability probably, for the most part, end up at schools where they "belong" or certainly could thrive at. (Many students in my D's school who are LD are of average of slightly above average ability; my own D is exceptional in the combination of high-IQ, high academic promise combined with LD.) But the latter is the population that I am most concerned about, because I run into many of them. They are the ones most compromised in college admissions by the rigidity of the admissions "formulas" & the difficulty getting SAT accommodations -- which is after all the subject of this thread.</p>
<p>I do not think that my D, and students like her, belong at a mid-level school. My D takes her cues, including academic cues, from her peers, & such a peer group will not encourage her to excel. The expectations & challenge will not be there for her. She also does not belong at HYP, i.m.o. However, she could very well fit in, excel, thrive, contribute at places like Wesleyan, USC, & others. But she has a snowball's chance in hell at getting included in admissions reviews with her scores in the basement.</p>
<p>There are lots of schools that don't take SAT scores into account.
Even the UW in Seattle has said that they are changing admission procedure from their academic index and will look at each application seperately.
( not that either of my kids would want to attend the UW but still)
My oldest D tested well with accomodations. She likes tests-
When she was given an ig test when she was about 8- to see if she was functioning at a normal level ( she was a premie) they tested her for hours and finally stopped ( with IQ they just keep testing until you miss a certain number of questions)
BUt her sister has more difficulty- anxiety kicks in and since she has processing deficits , it can be very unpredictable if the test is giving an accurate assessment.
Luckily, most of her teachers are willing to adapt- even her AP teacher, allow her to show in other ways that she knows the material.
Part of her difficulty has also been IMO, that teachers in middle school, knew about her LDs, but since she was passing, weren't interested in providing accomodations, so she really didn't get to shine, she just made it through ( she also didn't get to practice some of the skills that her peers in AP classes have been using all along).
FInding a college will be difficult
She will need one that has support and flexibility, but like her sister, she also performs better if she has peers that will challenge her.
She isn't interested in attending Reed, and frankly, although I know my oldest has learned a lot, and I like the school, I think that for her, a school that had a similar atmosphere but didn't do things the hard way just because that is the * Reed way*, would not have been as stressful.
I am interested in honors programs in some schools that otherwise would we wouldn't consider, but I am also wondering if those honors programs go by stats and scores or if they really look at potential as well.</p>
<p>I am also interested in class action or somesort of attention paid to college board and disallowing students accomodations- since 504 is a civil rights issue what about getting ACLU involved?</p>
<p>"I am also interested in class action or somesort of attention paid to college board and disallowing students accomodations- since 504 is a civil rights issue what about getting ACLU involved"</p>
<p>.....to be eligible under section 504 the individual must have a diagnosed diability that "substantially limits" their ability to perform a major life function. In this case learning would be the major life function. The ACLU has declined to define "substantial limitation". Past judge rulings have found that if a student is passing from grade to grade there is no substatial limitation in learning and therefore they do not quailify under section 504. There has been widespread misuse of the 504 law and schools and their lawyers are now starting to realize it. Our school lawyers have stated that at least in our state very, very few students really quailify under section 504. We give "principal modifications" on school and state level exams. These include: extended time, seperate location, and use of computer. A student doesn't have to be identified to get these.</p>
<p>Past judge rulings have found that if a student is passing from grade to grade there is no substatial limitation in learning and therefore they do not quailify under section 504.</p>
<p>our state doesn't give accomodations on NCLB exams-
but adults are eligible to receive 504 accomodations in the work place
in fact when discussing D with her then AP teacher, he confided, that * he recieved* 504 accomodations in the workplace</p>
<p>ACLU may not be the right place to get legal help- but I bet Wrightslaw will be interested
<a href="http://www.wrightslaw.com/info/sec504.index.htm#accoms%5B/url%5D">http://www.wrightslaw.com/info/sec504.index.htm#accoms</a></p>
<p>Quote from Epiphany:</p>
<p>"I agree that LD students who have average ability probably, for the most part, end up at schools where they "belong" or certainly could thrive at. (Many students in my D's school who are LD are of average of slightly above average ability; my own D is exceptional in the combination of high-IQ, high academic promise combined with LD.) But the latter is the population that I am most concerned about, because I run into many of them. They are the ones most compromised in college admissions by the rigidity of the admissions "formulas" & the difficulty getting SAT accommodations -- which is after all the subject of this thread."</p>
<hr>
<p>Reading this, I felt the air being sucked out of my lungs. IMHO, accommodations are not just for the "exceptional", "the gifted"...they are for all students who qualify for them. My son has a number of disabling conditions that according to the experts make it difficult to accurately measure IQ and they speculate that his IQ is always much higher, but they always post average full scale scores. In his evaluations, his achievement scores always far our strip his cognitive ability, thus amazing his evaluators. However, if he is not given time accommodations, this fact is lost when he takes the SATs.</p>
<p>While we would never strand our son in a college that is a bad fit, we are offended by the notion that accommodations are the province of the gifted who are in some way hurt most by the lack of them. I proffer the idea that it is the children on the lower end of the scale who are most hurt because it is they who are most at risk for receiving no higher education at all because they <em>appear</em> to be more marginal by numbers that lie.</p>
<p>A couple of asides: One must also look at subtest scores to uncover processing speed (fluency) issues. And, it's been our experience that normal accommodations for extended time are not easily or routinely granted. One school my son attended wouldn't grant a 504 to the amazement of our team of university specialists because they felt that a 504 was a "gentleman's agreement" and didn't need formal recognition.</p>
<p>In closing, I find it appalling that the prevailing view seems to be that only the gifted are the ones worth saving and that only the gifted are the ones who are significantly impacted by the forces of LD or AD(H)D. And I note that perhaps some of those students in whose company Epiphany's daughter must "sadly" find herself are perhaps demotivated and stranded because they have not received the attention and assistance they need to become confident life-long learners. And worse, the solution to that problem then becomes isolating them even further by pulling out "the chosen ones" because those left behind are deemed "those of little worth." How pitiful.</p>
<p>None of the specialists or educators who have worked with my son can believe the level of achievement that my DS has attained...and it was all brought about with a positive outlook, excellent teaching, and top-flight, consistently applied accommodations.</p>
<p>
[quote]
but adults are eligible to receive 504 accomodations in the work place
[/quote]
</p>
<p>but only if the employer receives some kind of Federal financial assistance (FFA) from the government. And, be aware that 504 was designed primarily to protect students with disabilities although employees may also be covered. If there is FFA then the employee, assuming of course that the person is a qualified individual with a disability, may be covered both by Section 504, and if it is a public agency like a school system, Title II of the ADA. If it is a private employer it is highly unlikely that there is Section 504 coverage and there would definitely be no Title II coverage. There could, however, be coverage under Title I of the ADA. EEOC enforces that portion of the statute. </p>
<p>If you think that your children are being discriminated against on the basis of disability by your school district you should contact the Office for Civil Rights, US Department of Education. Guidance on how to file a complaint is found here:
<a href="http://www.ed.gov/about/offices/list/ocr/complaintprocess.html%5B/url%5D">http://www.ed.gov/about/offices/list/ocr/complaintprocess.html</a></p>
<p>Information about disability discrimination is found here:<a href="http://www.ed.gov/about/offices/list/ocr/publications.html#Section504%5B/url%5D">http://www.ed.gov/about/offices/list/ocr/publications.html#Section504</a></p>
<p>If you are in a situation where there is concurrent ADA jurisdiction between OCR and the Justice Department I suggest that you file with the former and not the latter. DOJ has a small staff and less interest in anything that isn't precedent setting. It will take months, or even years, to evaluate your allegations (not investigate, evaluate) and then there is a high probability it will be referred it to OCR. By that time the complaint will be stale and nearly impossible to investigate.</p>
<p>Neither I, nor any other parent on this thread, has either said or implied that accommodations are the "province of the gifted." Accommodations are unquestionably for everybody who needs/deserves/qualifies for them. My more recent replies were to csdad, who frankly was singling out, or seemed to be singling out, LD students whose target list of colleges, according to him, were inappropriate for the ability level of the student (as proven by subsequent performance at said colleges).</p>
<p>However, BOTH LD and non-LD students who are not in the intellectually gifted category have an "easier" (relatively) time when it comes to college admissions, because the previously referred to "frenzy" around the admissions process is not nearly as pronounced at mid-level colleges. The chances at getting a read on one's application, if one has NOT (& inappropriately not) been accommodated during an SAT, are much greater at a mid-level than an upper-level college. The latter are so over-flooded with apps that they're not even interested in looking at a sub-par-scoring student unless that student is some celebrity (actor, known musician, known author, etc.) or otherwise extremely visible via wealth, athletics, etc.</p>
<p>Of <em>course</em> LD-students of all abilities & all proven accomplishment are challenged in the (1) accommodation process, and (2) college admissions process. It's just because the gap I describe is more pronounced, & the options fewer, for the gifted LD's, that I tend to be more concerned for their placements.</p>
<p>For years I have wished that both my D's were "average," actually. This is a completely other topic, not the subject of this thread, but I hope in another life that neither I nor my children are born gifted. I hardly think they're advantaged. They never have been. I and they have had to struggle for every opportunity & to seek on our own every appropriate challenge in the area of education. They have had at least as many challenges as less gifted students, both LD & non-LD.</p>
<p>And by the way, OrangeBlossom, I completely agree with your second-to-last paragraph. I find it no more excusable that my D's LD classmates are ignored than the fact that she is. When there is no LD person on staff, PERIOD, than there is the opportunity for the law to be broken both in letter & in spirit.</p>
<p>However, as I repeat, my D's have never, never been "pulled out" as "chosen ones." Perhaps you've had some experiences which contradict. I'm sorry if you have, but to claim that on CC or the world at large, the "prevailing attitude" is that only gifteds should have LD accommodations, is a conclusion that cannot be supported. </p>
<p>Here are 3 marginalized groups:
(1) LD in general
(2) Gifted in general
(3) LD + gifted</p>
<p>If one lives in CA, & one is part of group #3, just Good Luck with your education, & even Better Luck with college applications if you were born between 1985 and 1992.</p>
<p>"more recent replies were to csdad, who frankly was singling out, or seemed to be singling out, LD students whose target list of colleges, according to him, were inappropriate for the ability level of the student (as proven by subsequent performance at said colleges)."</p>
<p>.... my attempt was to show : 1) not all kids who are pushed to be classified should be classified 2) test modifications aren't always approriate to the level of the "disability" 3) accomodations such as "tests read" can inflate scores which may get a kid into a school which could be too challanging for them. If you get modifications on the SAT which will get your score to a point that you get accepted at a certain school you'd better be sure that you're going to get these modifications throughout your stay there or you may find it very frustrating. What about after college? My message is that parents need to be careful about giving their kids a false sense of reality and sometimes you just must accept that all kids can't do all things.</p>
<p>csdad, your recent post:</p>
<p>points well taken, but I think you're preaching to the choir, here. It doesn't sound as if parents on this thread are of the category that you have run into, necessarily. They seem grounded as to the limitations of their kids & are not promoting a "false sense of reality" (pre- or post-college).</p>
<p>Yes, modifications are not always appropriate to the level of disability. (That can be upwards or downwards, by the way.)</p>
<p>Once an LD student finishes college (& assuming that he/she maximizes the LD support at such institution, & schedules a realistic program), the LD will not stop suddenly. That ex-student will need to find coping mechanisms in the real world, & careers & job situations which will be a match for real ability & skill. (Because we are always learning, always processing information.) In the meantime, these students (again, subject of the thread) need to actually get to college. Without the SAT accommodation problem, they still would be challenged in that effort; but with it, they may be bumped into an inappropriate category of college relative to their ability. (And that would include more than just the Gifted LD'ers.)</p>
<p>I don't think the repliers here are expecting a perfect world. I think they understand that in the modern world, a college education is a virtual sine qua non for a satisfying, worthwhile career. We can go on <em>another</em> tangent & talk about whether/why "all" or "most" hs. students (LD or not) should matriculate to college or not, when this is not the pattern worldwide, but that's another thread, addressing a different aspect of "world realities."</p>
<p>csdad, your take on this sounds very much like the public school line. You are brave to bring it up here. I believe you are wrong. The public school is required to do a minimum of testing. They are trying to rule people out not qualify them. Private testing is more complex. The more tests one is given, the greater the chance if there is a disability it will be diagnosed. Students who only get public school testing and never have a private test done run the risk of having their disabilities never uncovered. If a student is bright enough but can't do the work, something is wrong and needs to be diagnosed. </p>
<p>A student who receives accommodations in high school should also get them in college. Accommodations on the SAT are not to boost the scores but to get them as close as possible to the scores they would get if they did not have those disabilities. Anything else is discrimination. To say that a student who gets an exam read to him or extra time will then get scores that get them into a college beyond their abilities, sounds like a poor excuse for not wanting to give that person the accommodations they deserve. No one should be excluded from a college that is otherwise a fit due to not getting the deserved accommodations. I have not read one reply here that says anyone wants something for the student that is not deserved.</p>