<p>I think a more suitable target for their outrage might be inquiring <em>why</em> students require time, effort, and money to prepare them for the writing section.</p>
<p>Marite-</p>
<p>Interesting. I guess that really holds the educational system's feet to the fire (unlike here)!</p>
<p>Here's a radical thought:</p>
<p>(A) Teachers (not students) should be required to submit a graded, in-class writing sample along with the teacher recommendation that gets sent directly to the GC's office, who sends it to the college. This accomplishes 5 things:
(1) determines the level of student writing in an actual class setting. (Wow, just like college!)
(2) reveals whether or not the teacher is a grade-inflater.
(3) gives context to the teacher's recommendation.
(4) is a check against the application essay. (Courtesy of LittleMother.)
(5) saves millions of dollars.</p>
<p>(B) I also have no problem with either a freshman writing placement test, and/or a required writing semester. My D did not have to take a placement test, but all freshman take a writing seminar, & she is loving her own right now, as it's theme-based. (Lots of intellectually stimulating & provocative topics from which to choose: this is no dry, elementary "bone-head English.")</p>
<p>(A), + (B), + the SAT II Writing, are comprehensively sufficient to eliminate the need for any SAT I Writing, which I see as just duplicative. Great for the test prep industry, horrible for already-overwhelmed seniors.</p>
<p>I actually prefer (A) and/or (B) even to the SAT II Writing. My D said that her prompt on it was so absurdly overbroad as to be meaningless. A friend of D had just a bad scorer/reader on the II Writing (friend is a brilliant writer), that the family actually ordered a copy of the original scored test, & their D also re-took it a.s.a.p. without prep & received a radically different score.</p>
<p>I like A but B is useless to adcoms. SAT-II Writing was eliminated when the new SAT was introduced, so that's not going to help adcoms, either.</p>
<p>Many colleges have both a placement test and a requirement that all freshmen take a writing seminar, no matter how they did in AP-English, SAT and SAT-II Writing or the college placement test.</p>
<p><a href="A">quote</a> Teachers (not students) should be required to submit a graded, in-class writing sample along with the teacher recommendation that gets sent directly to the GC's office, who sends it to the college. This accomplishes 5 things:
(1) determines the level of student writing in an actual class setting. (Wow, just like college!)
(2) reveals whether or not the teacher is a grade-inflater.
(3) gives context to the teacher's recommendation.
(4) is a check against the application essay. (Courtesy of LittleMother.)
(5) saves millions of dollars.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>With all due respect, I really do not see how the implementation of the above recommendation would improve the system. Is here why:</p>
<ol>
<li><p>Is the level of writing in college ascertained in class settings? Hardly! The true level of writing is measured through take-home papers. Except for dedicated classes, most exams test the mastery of a subject, and not the writing ability of students. On the other hand, the writing ability is graded -or at least measured- on every take-home paper. </p></li>
<li><p>Grading by high school teachers is EASILY the weakest part of the proposition. In general, people are suspect of the grading of the SAT Writing, and this in spite that teachers and readers have been selected AND trained to grade the SAME essay. In addition, the College Board/ETS/Pearson uses a series of fail-safe measures to ensure the integrity of the grading. And what does teacher X in school Y has to offer? To put it mildly, not much at all. In a perfect world, the english teachers should be well-read, well-trained, competent, and fair graders. Well, if that were the case, we would not have the abysmal level of preparation in writing and composition of our college freshmen. The reported number of students who need remedial classes is plainly alarming. And whom is to blame for this? The SAT Writing scores are bound to provide ample confirmation of the inability of the community of english teachers to teach a class how to write a simple essay. Giving the measurement stick to the high school teachers is a bad idea. </p></li>
</ol>
<p>And allow me to be highly doubtful of the integrity that such proposal would require. What would preclude a school to "prepare" its students ad nauseam for this exercise by having multiple rough drafts and corrections before the "real" test. One of the reasons we have to have standardized is that high school cannot -and should NOT be trusted. If you do not believe me, just check the incidents of organized cheating on the SAT. </p>
<ol>
<li><p>This implies that the LOR are coming from the good ol' english teacher. A good letter of recommendation should go well beyond any prowesses in writing. So, what is the point here? </p></li>
<li><p>For the nth time, the application essays are DIFFERENT from graded and timed essays. The 25 minutes "draft" type have ZERO relevance to the polished applications' essays that are expected from students. Again, absolute zero relevance. </p></li>
<li><p>Factoring the cost of allocating resources to this effort might be more expensive than the 13-15 dollars of grading the SAT and providing the online tools. In the standard cost of applying to colleges, the SAT Writing fees are insignificant.</p></li>
</ol>
<p>PS Yesterday I posted the three offical October prompts. Do you consider any of them to be broad and meaningless?</p>
<p>Yes, I know that (B) "is useless to adcoms." It became a topic for discussion by other repliers, implying that the "subjectivity" of SAT results could be replaced by the college's placement test -- not as an element of admission, obviously.</p>
<p>As to the SAT II Writing, if adcoms want a <em>standardized</em> nat'l/internat'l writing test, they're not getting one by eliminating the SAT II writing AND by de-facto elimination of the SAT I writing during the "experimental" phase. A separate SAT II Writing at least allows for a stand-alone opportunity outside of the exhausting 3-part new SAT I. Many students take only one SAT II subject test at a time.</p>
<p>As to marite's last sentence, that's exactly what I was referencing. My D "5'ed" almost all of her AP exams, including Engl Comp, & did well on the SAT's, yet all freshmen take the writing seminar. This requirement "standardizes" writing competency across the student body -- undoubtedly better than the SAT does.</p>
<p>Xiggi, the point of the in-class h.s. writing is not that it simulates college take-home assignments: it does not. But it is 2 things: it is classroom-context in topic, as opposed to the usually bland SAT prompts, the like of which will probably never be imitated in a college classroom; and it cannot be edited by parents, college counselors, etc., or lifted from the internet.</p>
<p>I think your #2 point is completely off target. If the teacher's subjectivity does not match the college's standards, that will be immediately evident by adcoms reading the bleepin' paper themselves. As to #4, the relevance is by no means "zero." The relevance (connection) is that the authorship of app. essays can be suspect. As to #3, I did not say that an Eng. tchr's rec would be limited to writing; of course it's not. Rather, the included paper verifies the writing <em>element</em> of the student's grade; it's imp. to this discussion because -- hello-- we're talking about writing competency & how to measure it for college admission. Doesn't matter if the student takes objective tests well, memorizes literary passages, & is a great talker in discussions -- that is, it doesn't matter for purposes of the writing portion. The recommender will note all these latter proven abilities, and WILL ALSO state what kind of a not-in-class writer the student has proven to be. If the student is "publishable" outside of class, but there hasn't been a single assignment in-class that is even in the same galaxy, a Committee has reason to question the grading standards of the teacher -- thus the value of the student's GPA. Your #5 is just a wild guess. Including one written in-class essay in any subject (doesn't have to be Eng.; could be history if history tchr. is a recommender) is not Rocket Science & not administratively painful or expensive. I know you just love the SAT's & will always promote them. I think they are way more expensive & wasteful of human resources than they have ever proven to be indicative of the quality of an incoming student or revealing of the quality of a student's college academics. If they were so useful & so predictive & so much more accurate than other kinds of measures, then the colleges would be able to eliminate all but the perfect & near-perfect scorers. Rather, each year they accept more & more imperfect scorers & reject more & more perfect scorers. And each yr. the list of SAT-optional colleges grows bigger.</p>
<p>I will restate (stop now if you're sick of this story) my beef with the subjectivity of the writing test.</p>
<p>Back when it was an SAT 2, my D took the test, and got a 6 on the subscore for the essay. A six basically means an incompetent writer --severe errors of grammar, organization, and thought. This was a kid who got an 800 on the writing section of the PSAT, 800 on the multiple choice part of the writing SAT 2, 4 on AP English, 770 on SAT verbal, and has since graduated Phi beta Kappa from a top ten LAC. All her high school teachers and college professors remarked on the competence and gracefulness of her writing.</p>
<p>We sent for a copy of the essay. You'll have to take my word for it (have taught college writing for 20 years, and won writing awards myself), but this was a highly competent, grammatically clean, thoughtful essay. But, no recourse from the College Board. Would not consider that there could have been an error.</p>
<p>My very stubborn child refused to take the test again; it may have cost her the one rejection she got (though that schools was one of the ones who later accepted her as a transfer, though she didn't go there.)</p>
<p>Anyway, after this experience, I don't buy the assurances that the scoring is effectively normed. Something went wrong there, and had real human consequences.</p>
<p>I don't understand the outrage about the writing test. At my daughter's public school, the students far and away considered the writing section the "easiest" and for most students it was their highest score. They were not all "tutored" for the writing test (my daughter wasn't and did really well).
Most colleges are not putting much emphasis on the writing score this year, but I don't see any reason for "outrage" here. For students like my daughter who plan to go into English/writing in college, it gives them a chance to "show their stuff". Take home papers don't count - I know too many parents who edit their kids take home papers.
Now if my daughter had only done as well in math......</p>
<p>For Garland - I hadn't read your post right above mine - sorry. Sounds like you do have a legit gripe. In general, though, at our school the kids who had always been good writers did better than those who were not, just as the top math students did a lot better than the others.</p>
<p>"I know you just love the SAT's & will always promote them."</p>
<p>Epiphany, I am afraid you must have missed most of my posts on the "new" SAT, and especially on the SAT Writing. I am only "defending" the SAT by default: none of the ideas proposed to replace the SAT has ever come close to be superior, and by a far margin. Contrary to what you believe, I do not like the SAT Writing at all, and especially because people continue to make it more than it is supposed to be. My position has always been that the colleges will not find the addition very useful and that the SAT Writing will never establish a national curriculum. That said, I still consider the SAT essay as one of the easiest part of the SAT, and at level where most students who aspire to attend a competitive college should do well enough to make it a non-event. </p>
<p>"I think your #2 point is completely off target. If the teacher's subjectivity does not match the college's standards, that will be immediately evident by adcoms reading the bleepin' paper themselves."</p>
<p>I still disagree entirely. It is not so much about teachers' subjectivity as it is about competence and absolute lack of standards and context. According to your plan, schools should see millions of essays that have as many different sources as divergent assignments. What kind of adjustments do you expect the colleges would have to make when receiving essays from Andover, Deerfield on the one hand and from a inner-city school in Los Angeles where 90% are URMs, and where the teachers could probably not earn a 600 on the current verbal SAT? As far as being "immediately evident" ... I can only stress that this would depend entirely from the level of integrity of the schools. And in this regard, I rather trust the boys and girls from Princeton.</p>
<p>This strategy would not work in large universities or really even big colleges I suppose because of the logistics of adcom reading time--but I thought it addressed the writing assessment in a worthwhile way. Whitman requires applicants to submit a graded analytic paper from a junior or senior English class with comments from a teacher. This gives them an actual sample of both the student's writing (and in some sense the level of instruction they had access to...).</p>
<p>mmaah,
Yes, at least one of my D's college choices either requested that or allowed that. (Thus, she did so & appreciated that option.) I, too, think it's an excellent option, but understand that sending from the student's family could invite mischief. (Example: comments, both good & corrective, were penciled by the teacher onto the paper my D later submitted. A dishonest person could have so easily erased negative comments, augmented positive ones -- or even reprinted the paper with mistakes corrected on a new printout & positive teacher comments recreated in pencil or pen.) There are ways around such deviousness, I realize. (Btw, I like Whitman: an under-recognized college.)</p>
<p>Xiggi, I respect your difference of opinion from mine. I know we won't agree on the SAT issue; that's certainly o.k.</p>
<p>Epiphany: Yes, my dark side contemplated the way this option could be abused as I was posting--(eg: submit someone else's paper...)but my guess is that it would be fairly rare--and that at least some so tempted could realize that they could be readily caught out or cross-checked. For example, if style in other essays is wildly different, if grades elsewhere didn't correlate .....This method doesn't seem to me to be more vulnerable to dishonesty than other kinds of essays submitted--and is likely to be a real work sample the student feels connected to in some personal way. (I think my son actually chose some grim piece on Camus that wasn't at all how I would have promoted him of course....Fortunately something else he submitted suggested he had a sense of humor...) Still this kind of requirement seems to me more genuine and congruent with who the kid is than any standard SAT prompt....</p>
<p>My daughter took the SAT twice this spring and scored 10 out of 12 both times on the essay portion. I read her essays as posted on her College Board profile and the scores seemed correct. Good, but not perfect. No special tutoring should be required.</p>
<p>The CB scores the essay to a thesis-support formula, the same formula used in most college essay writing, with two graders. If the graders are within a point, then the scoring stands. If there is a variance in the scoring, a third party reviews.</p>
<p>How is an anonymous grader's scoring any less subjective than any high school teacher's scoring? It is a complement to the essay submitted with the application.</p>
<p>I think it is a good thing to complement the multiple-choice questions.</p>
<p>As a mom with two girls with learning differences- I am concerned about the addition of the written portion to the SAT test
The oldest D had extended time to take the old SAT- she finished about the same time as everyone else, and recieved a decent score- but she couldn't have concentrated any longer.
She took two Sat IIs and did well but that was a completely different time. (She also submitted a graded research paper with her college application)</p>
<p>THe youngest, has a great deal of difficulty with timed tests, indeed most tests in general. Extra time, may help her somewhat, but the new SAT seems much too stressful and lenghty of an exam.
We will be looking at schools which also take the ACT and which use other methods to evaluate applications besides SAT scores instead of taking the SAT.</p>
<p>Epiphany, it is obviously OK to disagree. If everyone were in agreement on how to reinvent the SAT, we would not have this discussion. </p>
<p>Just a tidbit of additional consideration: there is a growing percentage of homeschoolers applying to elite schools. I believe that homeschoolers have to take a larger number of standardized tests as part of their application. Going the HS route may put them at a disadvantage as I am not sure that the home grading of the essay would be acceptable.</p>
<p>Homeschoolers generally do not have to take extra tests for admissions to elite schools.</p>
<p>When your children complain that the SAT is too long, tell them about when you walked to school each day five miles in waist-deep snow, uphill both ways. No, that's another story. This is what you can tell them: students used to take the SAT I and three SAT IIs in one day, no prep, no calculators.</p>
<p>Dismissing the writing section of the SAT as subjective and arbitrary strikes me as an easy, kneejerk response. I've graded AP essays, and while I'm no great fan of the College Board for a number of reasons, I came away from the experience impressed with the elaborate system of checks and balances meant to ensure the accuracy of the grading. I suspect that, as a general rule, there is a correlation between student scores on the verbal and writing sections of the SAT, just as there is a correlation between those who do well on the multiple choice sections of the AP English exams and those who excel on the written sections. These correlations remind us that skilled readers are often skilled writers, and they speak to what I imagine is the point of the written section of the SAT--to assess a student's ability to organize his ideas and express them clearly. If you think these things can't be assessed, just ask a professional editor or browse your average internet message board.</p>
<p>I've never been able to understand this. Son got highest possible score twice on SAT verbal, SAT II Writing, PSAT verbal and writing, ACT English and Reading, 5 on both AP Lit and Lang and on AP US Hist. Straight A student. He won awards in several non-school essay contests and was recognized as best english student one year in high school. </p>
<p>He prefers to write when he has time to edit and rewrite, but had a lot of practice in AP english & US History classes writing short essays under time pressure. One of these teachers grades AP Language tests and one is a great writing teacher. </p>
<p>He made an 8 on the essay. This is just one anecdotal story, but it makes me wonder a lot of things.</p>
<p>"This is what you can tell them: students used to take the SAT I and three SAT IIs in one day, no prep, no calculators."</p>
<p>Well I didn't take the SAT, but my mom attended the university of washington. She got in with a C average, and only two years of language- two years of math, algebra and geometry.
No more C average admittance- now I beleive even for instate it is very competitive. Students with AA certificates ( first two years of college- used to be automatic admit if you had good grades- no more, not even with straight As)</p>