Sat Writing Section Outrage

Parents Forum
41

<p>nope homeschoolers don't have to submit any extra tests- but it might be easier ;)</p>

<p>
[quote]
In order to help us best assess the fit for Reed the application must include the following:</p>

<p>A detailed outline of the home-school curriculum, including subject areas studied, texts used, and time spent on each discipline.
A comprehensive list of the books and texts read over the last four years, including novels, textbooks, and other resources.
An expository writing sample (in addition to the personal statement and "Why Reed" essay). This does not have to be a graded assignment, or one used for coursework, but should be of an academic nature.
A letter of reference from a tutor, evaluator, or teacher who is not a family member.
The secondary school report. Parents are often instrumental in the home-schooling process; they should complete the secondary school report, if appropriate.
SAT I or ACT test scores
In order to strengthen the application, we suggest:</p>

<p>An interview, either on campus or with a trained alumni admission representative in the student's area. This interview can be scheduled at any time before the application deadline by calling the admission office to make arrangements.
We prefer two academic references, but we realize that this may be difficult. A second letter of reference may come from an employer, supervisor, or any non-family member who can address important personal qualities such as responsibility, creativity, discipline, and initiative.
We do not require the SAT II, but we strongly recommend that home-schooled students submit three subject tests, preferably in writing, mathematics, and a third subject of the student's choosing.

[/quote]
</p>

42

<p>This is what a 45 seconds google search revealed: </p>

<p>"Standardized tests scores will probably carry more weight in Jimmy's application than his transcript, anyway. The vast majority of colleges require all applicants to submit SAT scores, but homeschoolers may end up taking even more tests: At some schools, like Notre Dame and Southern Methodist University, they're required to submit SAT II scores, while "regular" applicants are not."</p>

<p>Source: <a href="http://www.familyeducation.com/article/0,1120,69-2201,00.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.familyeducation.com/article/0,1120,69-2201,00.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>"Does SMU consider students who have been home-schooled?
Yes. Home school graduates must submit the Home School Certificate, SAT I and/or ACT scores, and three SAT II subject exams (to include English, math, and science). It is required that home-school applicants also submit the GED certificate if they wish to be considered for need-based financial aid."
Source: <a href="http://www.smu.edu/admission/faqs_admission.asp#home%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.smu.edu/admission/faqs_admission.asp#home&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>From Rhodes College CDS Form
"Home schooled students must submit the results of two SAT-II subject tests from areas other than English or Mathematics."
Source: <a href="http://www.rhodes.edu/Planning/cds/2003-2004/Rhodes%20College%20CDS%20Document%20-%20Section%20C.htm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.rhodes.edu/Planning/cds/2003-2004/Rhodes%20College%20CDS%20Document%20-%20Section%20C.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>"Still, the lack of traditional credentials continues to pose a serious problem for homeschoolers at some colleges. Without that transcript, say admissions officers at these institutions, they find it difficult to compare a student's academic performance with those of others from public and private schools who come with detailed transcripts in hand. In such circumstances, SAT and American College Test (ACT) scores assume greater importance. Approximately one-half of American colleges and universities require homeschooled students to take additional standardized tests, sometimes including the GED high-school equivalency test and even as many as eight SAT II subject tests. That's a heavy load of testing, and seems to some to amount to harassment."
Source: <a href="http://www.insightmag.com/media/paper441/news/2002/09/09/National/Homeschoolers.Arrive.On.Campus-261053.shtml%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.insightmag.com/media/paper441/news/2002/09/09/National/Homeschoolers.Arrive.On.Campus-261053.shtml&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

43

<p>Most selective colleges require SATII from all applicants or at least strongly recommend them- so I don't see telling homeschools to take SATs as unusual- neither is a high school diploma or GED certificate- to apply for aid that is a federal requirement</p>

<p>Some colleges are going to have more adept admissions staff to review transcripts of homeschools, just as some admissions offices have connections with certain high schools, others aren't going to be put off by homeschoolers-
I imagine the homeschool associations, have recommendations to what colleges those would be.
<a href="http://www.homeschoolfriendlycolleges.com/%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.homeschoolfriendlycolleges.com/&lt;/a>
Anyway.... there is a mechanism in place for alternative evaluations.
More schools are even making SAT/ACT optional or actually refuse to look at scores and place greater weight on recommendations, essays, and interviews.
Fairtest lists over 700 schools that do not use SAT or ACT tests in order to make decisions about the bulk of their applicants
Schools include MT Holyoke,Bates, Bowdoin, Franklin & Marshall, COnnecticut,Dickinson and Pitzer as well as members of large university systems in Arkansas, Texas, Nebraska and other states.</p>

<p>and in my backyard this came out last week

[quote]
University of Washington Changes Admissions Policy</p>

<p>Beginning this year, the University of Washington will no longer automatically accept students based on their high school grades and test scores, reports The Seattle Times. </p>

<p>The university is eliminating its statewide student ranking system called the Admissions Index, which is relied on to admit about half its students. Also, an internal system, called the “grid,” which ranked the remaining students on a combination of academic and personal factors, will no longer be used. </p>

<p>University staff will now read and review all 16,000 annual freshmen applications to find a “holistic” assessment of each candidate. In addition to academic performance, staff will consider factors such as whether a student has overcome personal or social adversity, leadership skills and extracurricular activities. </p>

<p>The changes come as part of a national shift by competitive public universities, prompted, in part, by the U.S. Supreme Court ruling in 2003 stating that universities could consider race as a part of comprehensive admissions but not award points for it. Race in admissions has been illegal since Initiative 200 was passed in 1998. A UW official said the new admissions system would not consider race but would consider socioeconomic factors. </p>

<p>“It’s a very big shift,” said Philip Ballinger, UW director of admissions. “The basic difference is that there is no grid anymore, no Admissions Index, no database, no pointing this or weighting that. It will allow us to create a full context to understand what a student has done and to know something about a student’s family, history and the opportunities they have or haven’t had.” </p>

<p>The new admission system will affect students applying for classes beginning in fall 2006. The extra work reading applications is expected to cost $200,000 per year. Application fees will be raised from $38 to $50 to help pay for the extra costs. The university plans to hires three permanent staff and 20 part-time graduate students to read applications.

[/quote]
</p>

44

<p>Yes, the new SAT I is longer & more tiring.
However at local HS,
scores have gone up (on the new SAT I) vs. the old 2-part SAT I.</p>

<p>So it's possible that with right amount of prep (including aspects such as
amount of sleep/rest/good nutrition/not getting sick, etc.),
that students can see a positive improvement on their scores.</p>

45

<p>good luck, U of W. Have fun reading all those apps "holistically." (And thanks for the link & quote, e.k.)</p>

<p>I'm dismayed at learning that U of W is eliminating its internal grid profiles. I didn't know they had it, but that sounds like a neat thing. Otherwise, what exactly is one measuring the adversity <em>against</em> or in relation to? (U of W, Are you a social service organization or an academic institution? Which is it?) This trend sounds suspiciously deja vu. Some U's briefly did this in the mid '70's -- REPLACED academic considerations with "life experiences." Maybe I'm reading too much into the quote that was pasted. (Probably am.)</p>

<p>I think it's valuable if U's contextualize an applicant's stats, & most of them already do. (The quotation notes that trend.) But I also see a value in having <em>public</em> institutions for which a statistical standard can be an entrance guarantee for an in-State student. I think this <em>also</em> is a social good.</p>

<p>I see it as more appropriate for a Univ. to offer scholarships for overcoming adversity than to offer admissions for overcoming adversity. (No, they don't say the latter, but the citation leans toward that with the abolition of so many statistical frameworks.)</p>

46

<p>Spoonjy: see my post number 27. </p>

<p>You are certainly within your rights to assume a made the whole thing up. It doesn't change the facts.</p>

47

<p>Post # 21 Alwaysamom:</p>

<p>My sentiments exactly!</p>

48

<p>garland,</p>

<p>Yes, I saw your post. I don't think you made the whole thing up, and I acknowledge that the grading of the SAT writing section differs from the grading of the AP exams. Still, I suspect that the overall "facts" reflect a direct correlation between student scores on the verbal and written sections, a few anecdotal exceptions notwithstanding. I'm just guessing here, but I can't imagine that the college board--or the colleges and universities that rely on their exams--would stand for anything less.</p>

49

<p>I few anecdotal exceptions are people's lives. I wouldn 't dismissthem so cavalierly.</p>

50

<p>"Most selective colleges require SATII from all applicants or at least strongly recommend them- so I don't see telling homeschools to take SATs as unusual- neither is a high school diploma or GED certificate- to apply for aid that is a federal requirement"</p>

<p>Did you not read that those schools do NOT ask for Subject Tests for the regular students? FYI, there have been several attempts to end this situation via amending the Reauthorization to the Higher Education bills. If there were not a problem, why try to legislate it? But, it is does not really matter, my earlier post stands and the information that "nope, no additional requirements for homeschooled" students" is plain erroneous, even if it applies to Reed. </p>

<p>By the way, here is an approximate list of achools with Subject Tests requirements. </p>

<p>School Subject Tests Required
Franklin Olin College of Engineering 3<br>
Georgetown University 3<br>
Harvard 3
Massachusetts Institute of Technology 3
Princeton University 3
Yale University 3 </p>

<p>Amherst College 2<br>
Barnard College 2<br>
Boston College 2<br>
Boston University 2<br>
Brandeis University 2<br>
Brown University 2<br>
Bryn Mawr College 2<br>
California Institute of Technology 2
Carnegie Mellon University 2<br>
Columbia University 2<br>
Connecticut College 2<br>
Cooper Union School of Engineering 2
Cornell University 2
Dartmouth College 2<br>
Duke University 2<br>
Harvey Mudd College 2<br>
Haverford College 2<br>
McGill University 2<br>
Pomona College 2<br>
Rice University 2<br>
Swarthmore College 2<br>
Tufts University 2<br>
University of California, Berkeley 2
University of Pennsylvania 2<br>
University of Virginia 2<br>
Vassar College 2<br>
Washington and Lee University 2<br>
Webb Institute 2
Wellesley College 2<br>
Wesleyan University 2<br>
Williams College 2 </p>

<p>School Subject Tests Recommended
Johns Hopkins University ** 3<br>
Northwestern University ** 3 </p>

<p>Babson College ** 2<br>
Davidson College ** 2<br>
Hampden-Sydney College ** 2<br>
New York University ** 2<br>
Occidental College ** 2<br>
Providence College ** 2<br>
Skidmore College ** 2<br>
Smith College ** 2<br>
Stanford University ** 2<br>
University of Delaware ** 2 </p>

<p>American University ** X<br>
Bennington College ** X<br>
Carleton College ** X<br>
Claremont McKenna ** X<br>
College of William and Mary ** X<br>
Hollins University ** X<br>
Lafayette College ** X<br>
Lehigh University ** X<br>
Mills College ** X<br>
Oberlin College ** X<br>
Reed College ** X<br>
Scripps College ** X<br>
Trinity College (CT) ** X<br>
University of Mary Washington ** X<br>
University of Southern California ** X<br>
Ursinus College ** X<br>
Vanderbilt University ** X</p>

51

<p>Garland, I believe that you have victimized by TCB at its worst. There could have been a technical glitch which TCB refused to acknowledge. I do not know the exact procedure that was used for the SATII but I believe that both scorers must have felt the essay was not worthy of a better grade and that no further review was warranted at the beginning. Why someone did not change it later does not make any sense, especially given your facts. </p>

<p>FWIW, there were other reports of great writers receiving bad scores because they departed from the "expected norm." Also, do you remember the article about Hemingway failing the test and the Unabomber -who was still a very "educated" person- doing real well. </p>

<p>It does not make the "error" easier to accept and TCB should have given you a lengthy and complete explanation.</p>

52

<p>Garland, have you read your child's essay? (i.e. is it from an earlier test or have you just gotten the score and will see the essay on the 29th?). You should really read the essay and see if you can possibly be objective about how good it is. If it is truly outstanding I would definitely ask for a rescore. But you need to base it on how well he did on this essay, not how well he has done previously since the readers of this essay are only judging the one essay. Much of the writing section is multiple choce so that should be more straight forward.</p>

53

<p>You cannot compare the sat 2 writing with the new sat ... it tacks on an additional hour in front of an already stressful test. I am sure that statistically significant differences would result if you could take the same kid and give him the same prompt in the two different contexts.
I think they ought to give a choice of prompts and include at least one that is not a general b.s. topic. Something about a specific issue in society or something of a personal nature .</p>

54

<p>The sat is pretty funny. One could argue that it's really easy compared to exams like IB, German Abitur etc.. but at the same time its soo annoying. I mean if you are doing a program like full IB (Im using this example just because this is the one I know about), you are surly going to be prepared for college. My predicted scores this year were 40/42...that's pretty darn good yet my sat scores turned out to be abysmal . im sure i can write, read and do math just fine. We write timed essays in every single subject yet I guess I did not have as much time or money to dedicate to the SAT's. Does that mean i'm stupid..? Does it mean I'm not as smart as all those people that get 2400's?
I also do not think that they should weigh it as much as they do in college admissions. It really depresses me that I may not get into the college of my choice because of a bad SAT score. I have worked hard throughout the past 12 years in schools. I've excelled in a lot of different areas and have really enjoyed my life so far. I have always taken pleasure in helping disadvantaged people and have done my best to help as much as I can. I play basket ball for a club for more than 12 hours a week and dance ballet for more than 6...i have good grades , good recs, good essays and good everything else.. but regardless of all of that I'm now being told I'm not going to get in anywhere decent because of this one number.
if that's true then that's sad</p>

55

<p>37 schools require subject tests
when you look at the thousands of schools, many really great schools that anyone could be happy attending- is 36 really that large of a number?
Why is it that you think that the SAT is such a great predictor of why someone should be admitted to college?
I applaud schools which don't kowtow to the college board and have their own criteria</p>

56

<p>A few colleges require extra tests of homeschoolers, but the vast majority do not.</p>

57

<p>"37 schools require subject tests
when you look at the thousands of schools, many really great schools that anyone could be happy attending- is 36 really that large of a number?
Why is it that you think that the SAT is such a great predictor of why someone should be admitted to college?
I applaud schools which don't kowtow to the college board and have their own criteria"</p>

<p>EK, could you please try to read my posts instead of jumping to conclusions about what you THINK I wrote? </p>

<p>Don't you see that you are making MY point? I posted the list in order to show how FEW schools require the Subject Tests: a departure from your statement that MOST competitive require or recommend Subject Tests. </p>

<p>The discussion here was about the requirements for homeschooled children, not about the soundness of the SAT as predictor. For what it is worth, that discussion is not really worth spending much time on! The UC system chewed on that bone and look what were the results? Don't you think that Gaston Caperton laughed all the way to his headquarters after meeting with the morons of the UC? While TCB was prepared to defend the SAT with a barrage of verified data, UC handed them them years of continued domination on a silver platter. If the UC believed to have won, it was at best a Pyrrhic victory. Did the SAT lose anything? The former SATII Writing jumped for the thousands into the millions and further discussions about making the SAT better were irrevocably set back a couple of decades. </p>

<p>As far as Reed, while you applaud their iconoclastic positions, I call them cynical manipulators. Reed gets a lot more mileage from its repeated rants about the rankings than a competitive analysis of the school does warrant. You like the school. Your daughter attends it. While I respect your positions, you might also consider that others do not necessarily share your opinions about the best selection system. That is why we have 4000 colleges in the country: to each his or her own. </p>

<p>Lastly and for the nth time, I do not care -nor discuss- if the SAT is the best system or not. It IS here and will stay for a long while. My focus is to do as well as possible on what we have TODAY and find ways to beat it. I let all the education gurus debate what WE should do while I simply react to what is there. However, I did spend quite some time analyzing the damn thing, and that is why I believe that most of the criticism is not warranted. On the other hand, if you believe I sing the praises of TCB/ETS without discrimination, you may want to pay more attention on what I write about the direction taken by TCB with the AP and Subject Tests.</p>

58

<p>Rant much?
I agree that the point I was trying to make was confused
While I was trying to say that I didn't think what colleges were requiring of homeschoolers was unusual compared to what they require of all applicants, and that while many schools do recommend SAT subject tests, they are also moving toward using other assessments and away from just numbers, even the most selective and even state universities.</p>

59

<p>EK, I understand your point, and let's leave it as a discussion of semantics. </p>

<p>As far as testing and admission requirements, my biggest hope would be to see a simpler and more universal system. A better SAT should accomplish this. If I were in charge of the "system" (fat chance!), my recommendation would be to overhaul the entire system, dump the need to equate the SAT to the class of 1946. Without any scientific basis to support my claim, I would probably advocate for having an extension of the current SAT that would administered like the PSAT, but in September or October of the senior year. I would like to see students selecting 6 tests out of 10 subjects, presenting 3 in the morning and 3 in the afternoon. The material covered in the present SAT would be reduced to fit three sessions of 45 minutes (Math, Writing, Verbal). The afternoon would be for three additional Subject Tests to be chosen by the students. There would be ONE testing opportunity for seniors only and everyone would take the tests ... and be done with it. An alternative would be to have two days by moving the AP to other time slots. No more repeats. </p>

<p>There are obvious issues with this, as better preparation will be rewarded -as it is in the PSAT. Also, illnesses/accident of students could derail the entire proposition. One option would be to have the tests at the end of the Junior year with one possible repeat in October. </p>

<p>One of the elements of such system is that a national database would be created and that TCB member schools could search for their "candidates" for recruiting purposes. While not eliminating the holistic system of reviewing the applications, it could simplify and shorten the courtship of students and schools.</p>

<p>Lastly, I would love to see a system where the AP exams become elective Saturday morning fodder and the SAT taking place on weekdays.</p>

60

<p>I think (as a student) that it's ridiculous to make a kid write a five-paragraph essay about an unknown topic at 8:30 in the morning in 25 minutes. I can do this no problem when I am actually awake. Some of my best in-class essays (at least in history class) have been in 15 minutes. But even those are only 4 paragraphs.</p>