<p>Ah, its somewhat factious. But you could have a fantastic military career without a degree.</p>
<p>Now what job could you do with out a high school degree? Whatever job you can get. For most jobs any “knowledge” you get from your degree has nothing to do with the job assignment. There are plenty of SMB that will take on some one who they think can get the job done- and a lot of that depends on personality factors outside of formal education. About a 3rd of CCIEs I know dont have a degree. </p>
<p>On the other hand what job could you get with a undergrad degree in Sociology? A bunch of GS jobs where there is simply a requirement for some kind of a degree as an HR check box. They dont care what you learned, just that you are the type of person who can get a degree, which makes things work out nicely for the civil service classifications. </p>
<p>Like I said, a lot of the employment functions being performed by the BS/BA could be done in other ways. And more affordablly.</p>
<p>I know quite a few young people between 20 and 30 how who were accepted at colleges simply chose not to go to college or never applied because they wanted to do a trade or technical job that didn’t require a four year degree and they are doing just fine…establishing their businesses, getting married, buying homes and having children. One opened a brew pub and restaurant, one has now bought her own salon, one works on high performance vehicles and just opened his own shop, one is a local builder known for renovations, and the list goes on and on. I for one appreciate “smart” hairdressers, smart mechanics, smart plumbers, smart electricians, smart guys that do construction, a smart realtor that makes a ton of money, smart kids in insurance (I keep thinking of more)…I’m not an education snob, it’s not just for everyone. I think it’s a rather narrow vision to think that kids MUST go to college at age 18. And the men and women my age who own those businesses are getting ready to stop and retire. Someone has to pick up those jobs. I have no doubt those young people will do just fine in life. If your kiddo has a fuzzy vision of what they like and what they might want to do between 22 and 30 then certainly if a college education is needed they should follow that path but the path doesn’t necessarily need to include college. This has been said over and over.</p>
<p>@2016BarnardMom, It is actually quite common in Silicon Valley. I have changed several jobs in the past 15 years. I have never been asked for my resume with the exception of a company merger, and that is just a formality. All my jobs come from my off-line network of co-workers. I believe the same thing is true for most of my co-workers too.</p>
<p>I think it is even easier to build your reputation online today. One can just participate in open source where all things are shared publicly to build reputation over time. Sites like stackoverflow, GitHub can help someone without a degree or work experience because it helps to show the quality of your work and knowledge. Recruiters or potential employers can identity talent by the code one contributes and interested in.</p>
<p>The Gates/Jobs/Zuckerberg types are not the usual type of dropout. It would not be surprising if there were thousands of others like them who dropped out (withdrew or took a leave of absence) from college to try to start a business, but returned to college if the startup plans failed.</p>
<p>momofthreeboys–again, those jobs need some kind of post-secondary training. Name a job that pays a living wage that only needs a high school diploma. No insurance company is going to hire you if you don’t have a college degree, mechanics, hair dressers, etc. all need a vo-tech degree at minimum. Realtor maybe, but at 18 years old, doubtful. It’s possible that an 18 year old could open their own brew pub, but getting the financing to do so without experience, unless there is family money to help, not happening.</p>
<p>I would love to have a mechanic, plumber or handyman in the family, but those jobs all require post-secondary training. The article says “say no to college” and CC is still college" to most people. </p>
<p>argbargy–exactly, there are a lot of jobs that want a college degree and it doesn’t have to be a specific degree, but you still need that degree. Employers want to know that you can LEARN, which isn’t as common as you would think, they want to know that you finish what you start and that you can complete projects/assignments on time with minimal oversight–all of which are skills needed to do well in college. How well you do those skills typically shows in your GPA and/or letters of recommendation. Those skills aren’t as transferable to employers from high schools because typically you have your parents and/or teachers riding you to get things done or you take such easy classes that you don’t need to work hard to get good grades.</p>
<p>It’s also interesting how much money these families have put into educating kids and paying for their college educations because they KNOW they are not typical and that luck had a lot to do with their success.</p>
<p>Yeah- exactly. When I say that a college degree is being used as a proxy thats what I mean. Employment tests are either illegal or frowned upon but by requiring a college graduate you are essentially screening for an IQ of 110 and certain helpful characteristics such as the ability to complete long term goals and delaying gratification. It isnt the specific knowledge that is important. </p>
<p>I find it plausible that someone (dont know if its the Uncollege guys) could devise a similar proxy that demonstrates to employers that you will show up on time, wont pinch the receptionists, and you wont wander out of the building if first time you are given a task you consider dull. </p>
<p>BTW have you seen the documentary “The Parking Lot Movie”? Its a lot of UofV students and grads from anthro and philosophy who are working in a parking lot. For years and years. That is better than “flipping burgers” how?</p>
<p>perhaps there is a difference of opinion here based on semantics.
Post secondary training, post secondary education, college, community college, trade school, OJT, I suspect semantics are at the heart of the differences. A new plumber having just completed a trade school has not graduated college(as I define it) yet certainly he has had additional training beyond high school. Similarly, to “flip the burgers” one must be taught about timing, safety, customer service, and other cooking/serving areas, so in the loosest definition, one might call that post secondary training. Yet though a person learned something, few would call it post secondary education
I personally do not define a trade school or barber school, or school of cosmetology as college, but I’d agree they are training, and can be a good alternative for some rather than college. That’s the point I had hoped to make- that the choice isn’t just college degree or flipping burgers.</p>
<p>And yes, argb, I’d agree not all that is learned in college is needed for a job. I’d also agree that sometimes the studies required to obtain a degree might be of little value once a person is on the job. However, reasonable people see that- like it or not, a degree is often required to even have the opportunity to be hired for a job. In light of that necessity, that is why some say a degree is needed for a job.</p>
<p>I would agree that joining the military is the only real prospect for an 18 year old high school grad that produces a wage that they can live on–considering their housing and meal expenses are covered for them. To advance in the ranks to earn an average college salary for a similar private sector job, however, you do need a college degree.</p>
<p>The guy who repaired my wood-burning stove last week charged me $40/hour, including his 3-hour roundtrip driving time, plus gas! (And, no, there wasn’t anybody closer who could do it. My only choice would have been to pack up the stove and drive it back to the factory myself - yeah, sure!) Now this guy has been working for the manufacturer for about 10 years, and does this on his own, evenings & weekends, probably makes a better living than I do (with all my fancy degrees), has more work than he can handle this time of year . . . and he had no prior training or experience before starting this job. The factory he worked for shut down, this place had an opening, so he took it . . . and ran with it. Yeah, maybe it was part luck, but it was also a large part initiative.</p>
<p>And he’s getting ready to retire . . . so if anybody out there has a kid who might be interested in taking his place, let me know and I’ll tell you where to apply.</p>
<p>I know the meaning of “factious”, but I don’t understand its use in post 21. What is it referring to? Was the proper word used? Help to educate me, please.
Knowing it refers to internal dissention, I imagine a work committee headed by Bob, but many in the group hoped it would have been headed by Tiffany, so that group in the committee don’t give Bob their best efforts.(my example). Or, we might think of a Supreme Court decision that isn’t unanimous(real life example).</p>
<p>It was me mis-typing and accepting an auto correct for “facetious”.</p>
<p>General of the Armies is the highest military rank that can exist in the US and I dont think it has been given out in 60 years. As a historical position the job would be more significant than President, but there is no requirement for a college degree. In fact the only holders of the title were probably strictly military college, if that. I was making a non-serious counter example showing that career military is a viable alternative path, although people like Petraeus are getting degrees from elite civilian institutions.</p>
<p>^^the retire thing is what makes some of these businesses and trades so interesting to me. There is a whole generation that will retire within the next ten years. Many of these jobs do NOT require a 2 year commitment…some, yes, do require coursework to become licensed but often the kids can get licensed while they apprentice or while they work full-time at another job. My son is working in an industry and job that might not really require a college degree, but the fact that he has it has elevated him above his peers already and I’m guessing in ten years it will make the difference in his trajectory. And his managers are watching carefully…as they plan to retire soonish and are looking to secure their replacements. Am I glad he went to college? Absolutely. At 18 he was all over the place about what he “might” want to do. College opened his eyes to different possibilities and helped him “form” a vision. If he had known then what he knows today I would have simply told him to dive in and back burner college or forestall it and let his company contribute to the costs, but however kids approach the question or college or not, it behooves us as parents to point out all options. </p>
<p>And no I vehemently disagree that military is the only option. It is one option for a kid that “fits” that trajectory and not all do. I could no more imagine my oldest in the military than I can imagine my fingers touching the actual moon. BTW the military does say “thanks but no thanks” which they did last year to a friend of my number 2…top of the class on all the tests they administered and a phenomenal athlete so boot camp was a breeze, but the military and he…not so much…it was not a good fit for the kid or the military so they amicably parted ways which I didn’t even know you could do and the kid is now in college with a goal in mind. I had questioned him when he was a senior in high school, his parents had misgivings but they, too, bought into the thought that he would earn a good living. He doesn’t regret the two years between enlisting and leaving, and he’s much more focused but to think that the military is the only option or the best option for all kids…not so much.</p>
<p>argbargy–yep, the oil fields are booming in ND, McDonald’s is paying $20/hour, however, try finding a studio apartment on that wage–not happening. Many of these highly paid workers are living in their cars because there is no housing to be had. Drug abuse is running rampant up there too. It’s not a pretty sight. H’s company does a lot of work with these industries and it isn’t all roses like you would think. </p>
<p>dodgersmom–would you hire an 18 year old right out of high school for that same job though?</p>
<p>No, but seriously, I know a young woman who got out of high school and had no clue what she wanted to do. All of her friends went off to college and she went to the local CC and obtained an AA with a certificate to be a paralegal. Now, she makes quite a lot of money and her law school friends can’t get a job.</p>
<p>Some of these CC trained jobs are not off-shorable. This paralegal does a lot of supervising of young contract paid law school grads. Also know a young woman who became a dental assistant. There’s a lot of different work out there and a lot of these “kids” are extremely employable, over and above your average college grad.</p>
<p>Yes, these three are the main anecdotes that get trotted out whenever someone wants to revive the “you don’t need college” argument. </p>
<p>To that I say, fine, if you happen to be the next Bill Gates or Steve Jobs, lucky you. You’ll do just fine without college. But on the very real chance that you are not the next tech genius with a world-changing idea, maybe you should play it smart and earn your degree just in case your dreams of unimaginable success and wealth don’t quite work out.</p>
<p>Why not? They’ve got to hire somebody to fill that spot in the factory. And yeah, he or she is going to have to be trained, and it’ll be a few years before he or she is ready to go out and do house calls . . . but four or five years down the road, that kid’s going to have it made!</p>