Saying no to Stanford?

Yes, she was accepted at Stanford, potential class of 2023. She plans to major in Chemistry, possibly pre-med. Hence the attraction of no tuition at Alabama - save it for medical school tuition. She is down to those 2 schools based on desire to attend a “warm weather” school. Waitlisted at Vanderbilt, rejected at UNC.

Then Alabama on full scholarship is the easy choice if set on attending medical school.

Essentially, medical school negates some of the advantages of earning a Stanford degree.

No, she’s not set on med school. “She plans to major in Chemistry, possibly pre-med.” A smart kid who’s just “possibly” interested in med school but not determined? Sounds like a good match for Stanford. And Stanford thinks she can do the work. OP—what do you think of getting in her way?

Friends daughter turned Stanford down due to the “vibe”. Cost wasn’t a factor at all

Every school has its vibe, when we visited Stanford it definitely had that start up, tech vibe which totally turned my DD off, so she didn’t apply. Funny thing is it only takes about 20-30% of the school having similar interests to give it a “vibe”. The majority could be interested in other things but the school still gets that reputation. If fact the only place that had more of a vibe was Princeton, the campus was immaculate, the student tour guides were immaculate, the buildings were so immaculate we were asked not to bring any water bottles inside since us common folk might spill some. Definitely felt the wealth, and I totally got what Michelle Obama was saying about it.

So, this comes down to whether a “superior reputation” of Stanford is worth forking over some $300K for an undergrad degree and then a possible medical school down the road that’d also require another $300K? If the OP has the Lori Loughlin-type of discretionary money to throw around, then I’d say Stanford. If not, save it for her grad school financing. You’ll always have that Stanford admission letter framed on the wall.

“Essentially, medical school negates some of the advantages of earning a Stanford degree.”

I would take this one step further and say that Medical School negates ALL of the advantage of the Stanford degree. Medicine is egalitarian. I practice alongside alums from Stanford, Brown, Dartmouth, etc. and everyone makes the same money as their respective specialists educated at Nebraska, Missouri, etc.

I think @TiggerDad summarized it as well as can be.

Agree with the posts above regarding engineering and medicine. It doesn’t matter what uni she graduates from.

But if she is even remotely considering any other field, Stanford is much more recognized. Especially financial services, consulting, law. Having a Stanford degree will open a lot of doors.


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“warm weather” school.

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I don’t think of Stanford as a warm weather school. Daily, it’s actually quite cool there.

If you can afford to then definitely go to Stanford.

If you value learning for learning’s sake, go to Stanford. There will be a substantial difference between the average student’s level of interest in academics when you compare Alabama and Stanford. Not a difference at the top, but if you look at the average student in the middle, a Stanford student will usually be a lot more academically focused than someone at Alabama (or any other large state school not known for top tier academics).

Based on your D’s stats, she seems to be very capable of thriving academically at Stanford and it seems to me that she would be unchallenged by Alabama’s academics. I recommend Stanford.

@mom2collegekids Didn’t one of your son’s go from AL to med school? Did he find the academics are AL “unchallenging”?

I would remove law from this list. For Law the reputation of the Law School matters, not the reputation of undergrad. With top grades and top LSAT score you can get into a top Law School from any reputable undergrad. For financial services and consulting, I agree tht the prestige of undergrad matters.

I will add my voice to the chorus of people saying if she is seriously considering medicine Alabama is the better choice. The money saved from UG tuition will make med school so much more manageable.

My question is why would one of the most talented kids in the country not want to attend a world class undergrad institution in chemistry, biology, physics, and math and challenge themselves academically?

Some say undergrad doesn’t matter but I disagree, it ALL matters. Where you went to middle school, high school, college, grad school, internships, research opportunities, summer jobs, your first job, etc. is extremely important in the development of young professionals.

Remember it’s not by chance that world class colleges like Stanford have an excellent reputation, the top undergrad programs and the highest rankings known to man. They have earned it.

Remember colleges like University of Alabama have to “buy” high stat kids with full rides in an attempt to attract them to their college. If their undergrad experience was just as good or even close to Stanford’s there would be no reason to entice these kids monetarily.

Lastly, many premed students choose a different career path and earning an undergrad degree from Stanford can give you the tools, experience, and contacts necessary to excel in the future.

@fearthetree321 I know this is pretty close to decision deadline, but I think there are a few other considerations your daughter needs to think about before deciding. I’ll opt not to say which choice is better, and as she will see below, there are VERY strong factors arguing for both choices so it’s not a simple answer.

Please feel free to send me a PM if she has specific questions. I’ll do my best to respond in time before May 1, but things are pretty busy in the hospital so no promises. Sorry since answers would prob be terse

tl;dr: Undergrad reputation matters a lot, perhaps far more than it should, for determining how successful a candidate will be these days in the med school application process. Graduating debt free from undergrad is also huge, and the ways to try to alleviate undergrad debt during med school are far from guarantees.

Things to consider:

  • Stanford is not competitive. I made friends in essentially every major, and not one ran into this. Not even us pre-meds, which is usually the most competitive/sabotage-ey group at other institutions.
  • Stanford overall is not academically that challenging, and is actually surprisingly more manageable than most people expect, EXCEPT for some majors. Unfortunately chemistry is one of the harder majors, as are many engineering and CS. That said, I'm not sure if chemistry as a major would be easy anywhere haha.
  • As pointed out above and something I want to emphasize, most people who think they may be pre-med end up never becoming a med student. At Stanford this attrition rate was around 50%. Of the Stanford students during my time, usually this is because they found something they liked more, or realized they didn't like medicine that much, and so discover a new first choice career. A much lower percentage either believe they wouldn't get in even if they applied, or applied and didn't get in, so ended up going with a second choice. So choosing an undergrad based on just the possibility of going to med school would be making a big decision based on an imperfect assumption. That said, everything below matters if she is willing to bet that she will continue down this path.
  • Posters before mention undergrad degree does not matter for MDs. This is true. However, this is leaving out a VERY big consideration: Getting into a US MD school is exceptionally difficult, much more so than some of the older practicing docs may remember if they aren't involved in admissions these days. The % acceptance rates makes Stanford undergrad's--which on these fora is so often touted as being so low that you may as well not apply--look like the norm (it essentially is). The obvious factors play into likelihood of acceptance: MCAT, GPA, research, extracurriculars, LoRs, essay. But "pedigree" of undergrad matters a very, very surprising amount. I remember the first year I got involved in admissions at a "top 10" US MD school (by any metric, including the relatively useless USNWR rankings), it was actually stunning to see the preference given to students coming from Stanford, Ivies, Duke, and Vandy. Without revealing any specifics, for interview invites especially early ones, as well as early acceptances, merit scholarships it was actually astounding how hard it would be at some points during the year to even find an accepted candidate who did not come from a name brand school. Early invites and early acceptances matter a lot for reasons which are too numerous to type out here. Even at the end of the admissions cycle, the preference was palpable, even though not so much as in the autumn when the first acceptances went out. Medical training is, beginning from undergrad, a set of stepping stones, with the current one only mattering for getting the next one but not all that much for any after that. I.e., undergrad reputation matters for med school apps, med school reputation matters for residency matching, residency reputation matters for fellowship/job placement.
  • Graduating with less debt is huge. There's no way around it. You can calculate it out the number of extra years worked based on average compensation of her likely specialties, but at the end of the day, even one extra year of work can be taxing for an old, jaded MD, and the psychological pressure to pinch pennies throughout undergrad/med school/residency/early attending life cannot be quantified. --- Now, there is always the consideration that, just as Stanford undergrads tend to get accepted into more med schools, they also tend to get offered more merit scholarships (including several full-tuition or full-ride ones available at several top med schools), which could alleviate or cancel out her delta undergrad debt. But of course this is a huge gamble, and not one that she can count on paying off. --- There is also the relatively minor consideration that going to Stanford --> better chance of getting into highly-regarded med school that has a history of being able to place students into competitive residencies in specialties that compensate more --> better chance of matching into a well-paying specialty --> able to pay off debt faster. But there are so many "if's" in this line of thought that she shouldn't bet on this either, especially as around 2/3rd of med students change their minds on specialty decisions, regardless of how "sure" they were when they matriculated.

Medicine is a rough field. Regardless of where she goes, she’ll need to do some soul-searching to decide if she thinks it’s really right for her. Now that her apps are done, high school senior spring/summer is a good time to use her free time to shadow some MDs. While most preceptors tend to have their students come in late, leave early, and spare them from seeing the “difficult” patients, she’ll want to ask to not be treated with the kid gloves. Otherwise she may not have grasp of what her profession is really like until she’s in too deep.

Congratulations to your daughter! If she has not decided yet, I will throw in my two cents. I went to Stanford undergraduate and Notre Dame for law school and now live in Alabama. I absolutely loved my time at Stanford - it was an amazing, unique place. Granted it was a few years ago, but I did not find it competitive at all - any competition there may have been was with yourself. Everyone was supportive and it was a very collaborative environment. Who wants to room with people from your high school. Having a random roommate is part of the fun of college (and if she goes to ND or BC, she will also have a random roomie). They may end up your best friend or just an acquaintance. Mine was a varsity swimmer and we did not have a lot in common, but I made so many amazing friends from all over the country and they were my roomies for the next three years vs at an Alabama where there are a lot of kids probably from your daughter’s high school and the state. I would expand my horizons. I also loved the quarter system. Having three quarters of classes really gave you an opportunity to explore many different classes and interests (much more so than the semester system). The Stanford name also opens a lot of doors. If your daughter decides to go there, I am sure she will flourish.

My son is off to ND in the fall. I also loved ND and the tradition and the sense of family. I loved both schools equally for different reasons and there is really no wrong choice for your daughter. If she chooses Alabama, ND, BC or Stanford - however much she puts into it, she will get out of it and she will make it her own experience and will love it.

I went to graduate school in Alabama (at UAB) and met a number of UA grads in the medical program there. If your daughter is considering med school, Tuscaloosa can certainly give her the foundation to get there. That said, let me say that my son is currently a freshman at Stanford in Bio and he has been amazed at how collaborative the students are with each other and willing to help. Let’s face it, Chemistry is going to be hard no matter where you go to school. But I think your D will find that the campus is full of amazing people (not all of whom are interested in startups) who are supportive and collaborative. That, coupled with perhaps some of the best opportunities for undergraduate research in the world, will allow her to create a competitive CV. Go to admit weekend (going on right now!) and make a decision from there.

If you can swing Stanford without too much trouble, I can’t imagine saying no. If your daughter was accepted, she can do the work. (We women often tend to underestimate ourselves) I’ve never visited Stanford, but everyone I’ve met who went there is pretty darn cool. I imagine it’s a fantastic place to spend 4 years. AND, the doors it would open for her - well, I think that’s one of the schools that, if you are accepted, you just go.

Another vote for Stanford –– it is truly an exceptional school with filled with very bright, quirky, collaborative, highly motivated students. There’s pretty much something for everyone there and the school does a great many things very, very well. My D –– who is not one to spend money frivolously and for whom cost was a significant consideration –– turned down full tuition scholarships at schools like Vandy and Wash U to attend Stanford at near full-pay (we did get a token amount of FA). She does not regret her decision to forgo the scholarships for a single, solitary second (no do we!!) and is 100% certain that she made the right choice!