<p>One reason for Scarsdale to skip APs is you avoid the conundrum of what to do for the rest of May and June when kids are still in school due to the NYS Regent's Schedule. (If I remember correctly Scarsdale used to opt out of Regents too, but I believer aren't allowed to anymore?) Scarsdale also had a serious revolt about the state testing at the middle school level a few years back. I haven't heard anything about it lately though.</p>
<p>marite: Of course, if a student is really advanced, the AP test should be a cinch even if no one has "taught the test" to him or her. But, on the whole, and assuming that kids in Scarsdale put their very nice pants on one leg at a time like the rest of us, it has to be a little easier to do well on an AP test if you have just taken a course that was 99% congruent with the test vs. taking a different (maybe harder, maybe better) course not oriented to the test. My son could probably do OK on either Latin AP test, since what they cover isn't fundamentally different from what he's studied, but it would take a lot of work to get up to speed on the specific works that one needs to know for the tests.</p>
<p>In fact, in the Glass Is Half Full department, this could be an opportunity for heretofore nondescript public high schools (not Scarsdale, LW's, or my own prior) to earn some respect. I.e., high schools already enjoying a recognized profile by admissions committees will not suffer from such changes, and my own belief is that on an individual basis, the students there will benefit. That would include students at schools such as marite mentioned (we have one of those, too), with a long-standing perception of excellence sans AP courses, though many students take & pass AP exams separately.</p>
<p>It could be an opportunity for "magnetizing" certain public schools which have suffered from an absence of AP courses. It is sometimes difficult to find AP-qualified teachers to teach in underperforming schools -- only one of several reasons AP's are often not available there. The distinction in qualification is minor, but good teachers love to teach demanding courses, and this could attract such teachers to schools offering unique courses.</p>
<p>JHS:</p>
<p>My two Ss had quite different experiences with AP-USH in the same school but different teachers. S2 had a teacher who assigned a text that was heavy on social history, but thought she needed to prepare the students for a test that would be heavy on political history. On top of that, she'd previously been an English teacher and took an "explication de texte" approach to preparing the students for the DBQ. Even with the same topic, teachers teach to their strengths and interests. I would expect a Scarsdale US history course to cover pretty much the same ground as an AP course in the same subject.<br>
S1 and S2 also took AP- English language and do not seem to have read the same texts. S2 in fact doubled up on English; his senior English class (non-AP) was taught by a published author who seems to have motivated his students better than the AP-English teacher.
All this to say that the lack of an AP-designation does not mean lack of appropriate coverage or rigor.</p>
<p>Oh, and both S1 and S2 reported that they really learned to write in their non-AP classes because these assigned long research papers, unlike the AP classes. For both of them, this happened primarily in 9th and 10th grade (for S2, it happened as well in his senior English class, which he took concurrently with AP-English).</p>
<p>This struck me as odd:
[quote]
Anotherteacher noted that because the AP social studies tests involve DBQ’s, or document-based questions, students do many, many of these exercises during the year.“There’s nothing wrong with DBQ’s,” he said, “but we could certainly do fewer ofthem and more assignments that involve research, for instance, so that studentswould have a better preparation for college.”
[/quote]
DBQs ARE research. Primary research. I can't imagine a better way to really understand history than seeking the original works of the time period and analyzing what ideas shaped that history. Much better, I think, than simply using a college test that may or may not have the author's biases in check. </p>
<p>I'm against pushing APs. I remember one poster on CC complaining about her freshman d being pressured to take AP physics, and she was not some extraordinary science genius; just a very bright girl on an APcrazy track in a highly competitive school district. At my d's all-girl Catholic, the top students typically graduate with only 4 or 5 APs, and there are many high honors courses that are more challenging than the AP curriculum. Passing rates are excellent: more than three times the national average, with most girls earning 5s & 4s. At my town's h.s., the administrators are frantically adding APs to mask the weaknesses in the system. They offer over 20, and 3 more are being added for the fall. Yet passing rates are dismal.</p>
<p>Marite: I'm sort of an anti-AP person, myself. I think the curriculum is often somewhat mediocre. So of course I agree that "AP" does not guarantee appropriate coverage or rigor.</p>
<p>And, yes, one of the major limitations is the 45-minute essay focus, as well as "DBQ"s where the D[ocuments] have all been pre-selected and edited.</p>
<p>One of the best projects we did in social studies is making our own DBQ (in a group). And then after our teacher edited it, we all did each other's DBQ's.</p>
<p>"Scarsdale voters OK budget by large margin" </p>
<p>The controversy over the plan to drop AP courses galvanized voters who approved the $124.9 million budget by a wide 3-1 margin. The budget vote cum referendum gives the green light for the school district's decision to adopt "a more rigorous curriculum that would not be driven by a single year-end test."</p>
<p>I am ready to move to Scarsdale if they promise they will not adopt IB any time soon.</p>
<p>These so called accelerated curriculae are an interesting framework to work from, the shame is when they become the be all and end all. </p>
<p>A great teacher can inspire and educate regardless of reasonable curricular constraints.
A lousy teacher is handcuffed with even the most brilliant curriculum.</p>
<p>The most happy people should be the educators of Scarsdale, for whom this step is an enormous vote of confidence.</p>
<p>Scarsdale? Isn't this the same school district that 5 years ago got rid of their Regent-level courses because too many parents complained the tests were too hard for their children?</p>
<p>Scarsdale is not what it used to be!! Many of the neighboring communities have surpassed Scarsdale in the rankings. This new policy will actually work against students who are not applying to Ivys.</p>
<p>No, Scarsdale is the school district that up until 6 years ago, when NYS required it, did NOT GIVE a Regents diploma because of the community's confidence is the local curriculum. Scarsdale is also that District that took a very public stance on the plethora of middle school standardized tests required by NYS even prior to the NCLB requirements and the negative impact such tests had on curriculum and teaching. This community believes that our educators can best design curriculum to stimulate our students and prepare them for college. The move to eliminate AP's has everything to do with providing a less constricted, challenging curriculum which will be validated by outside university sources from schools like Brown and Sarah Lawrence. This is not about avoiding public scrutiny of how our students perform on APs. A recent article (April 2007) in Westchester Magazine noted that the average AP score in Scarsdale is a 4.12. 99% of our graduates go on to 4 year colleges, many to top 25 LACs and universities. Real debate occurred this past year in the community about the efficacy of such a change and the HS guidance department did extensive studies on the possible effect on college admissions of dropping the program. The responses (from the top 100 schools applied to by Scarsdale students, including many state schools) supported the District's position that if SHS indicated clearly which were the most challenging courses offered by the school, and if the courses which replace APs are rigorous and challenging, our students will not be at a disadvantage when applying. Of course, the fact that Scarsdale High School and its students have a proven track record with many college admissions departments may have certainly helped in reaching this conclusion. This decision did not have unanimous community support, but the Board of Education conducted public meetings, received information and advice from respected educators and its own faculty and staff and decided to implement the change on a rolling basis. There was a faction in the community that tried to defeat the budget to make their opposition clear (regardless of the fact that the Board of Ed had already approved the change), but they were unsuccessful as the budget passed yesterday by a 3:1 margin. And to respond to the poster above, if you are referring to the Jay Matthews rankings, Scarsdale never ranked high because the AP classes offered (and there were a limited number to begin with) had admissions requirements so the number of kids taking APs (Matthews criteria) was limited. Actually, in a ranking of Westchester high schools (see the article referenced above) Scarsdale ranked first this year.</p>
<p>How do I know all this...I live in Scarsdale and have been intimately involved in this debate for the past 7 years. I have hesitated in responding to this thread because I'm not really interested in debating the decision of the Scarsdale Board of Education. I personally support it, and our faculty.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Scarsdale? Isn't this the same school district that 5 years ago got rid of their Regent-level courses because too many parents complained the tests were too hard for their children?
[/quote]
Goodness, where did you get that idea? No, they complained that the Regents curriculum was too easy. If I could afford to live in Scarsdale, I would. Well I might, I do like the diversity (both economic and racial) of our community which I think Scarsdale lacks, but the Scarsdale schools are top notch. I envy them their ability to thumb their noses at the Regents and the College Board.</p>
<p>runnersmom,
I believe that Scarsdale made the right decision, and I applaud the district & its supporting community of families for departing from the crowd. I see that a few schools in the NE have also done this in the last few years, and a very few in my area have similarly done so. (Correction, one in my area has not abandoned the AP's altogether, but easily half of the advanced style of classes are non-AP, in-depth unique classes not available at other high schools, & offered by teachers with advanced knowledge in those subjects.) </p>
<p>I predict that this will start happening more quickly, and very soon. I agree that students taking such courses will not be at a disadavantage iin admissions.</p>
<p>Scarsdale schools are still considered great.</p>
<p>We considered moving there when we relocated back a couple years ago, but opted instead for a school district that had a special program in the high school that was perfect for my daughter.</p>
<p>As to diversity, Scarsdale people seemingly have an unprompted party line for that, almost as if rehearsed in a school assembly, where they extoll their community's extensive diversity. However upon probing they mean they have well-off people from all over; the range of economic diversity does not dip far on the low end.</p>
<p>The APs are kind of a problem in these parts because after the test kids are watching movies, or otherwise treading water, for a month.</p>
<p>I have two minds about the APs myself. On the one hand they definitely limit teachers, and stifle those who would institute a more challenging curriculum.
In some cases I don't think college level courses are ideally taught by high school teachers who are not experts in these fields at this level. Some Honors courses offered by our school looked more interesting than the AP courses, but my daughter was scared to take them because she felt the colleges would be expecting the APs.</p>
<p>On the other hand, I like the idea of a standardized curriculum where there is some certainty about what's been covered at minimum.</p>
<p>I'm reasonably certain Scarsdale can get away with this, as can private schools with established high reputations like Fieldston (which actually was at the vanguard of this "rebellion"). But most public schools with less lofty reputation can't, without their kids getting penalized by the college reps, IMO.</p>
<p>I beg to differ!! Time will tell.</p>
<p>I realize that there are not a lot a Jay Matthew's fans on this board, but he's a Scarsdale alum, and wrote about this issue last month (taking a contrary pov):</p>
<p>to monydad and others: our HS does not allow kids to slack after the AP tests -- all classes have graded projects, research, reports, etc. due late June They count for at least 10% of the semester grade, so kids have to take them seriously.</p>
<p>My kid has some of this too. Problem is the seniors basically don't give a hoot anymore about these projects, and no longer care about their grades. The last thing they cared at least a little bit about (ie get a 4) was the AP.</p>
<p>Her final paper in subject #1 will be written the night before due date. Same with all the other kids in that class, if she is to be believed. Her project in another class will be done in sleep-walking fashion.</p>
<p>There's another one where she was literally watching movies; this may be the one that required a final project too, not sure. </p>
<p>Bottom line is, as a practical matter she's done.</p>
<p>It seems to me that in the case of my D's high school -- a huge public in Denver -- AP tests have raised the overall standards: kids needed the APs, so the lower classes had to be strong enough to offer kids AP-level preparation. Also, AP teachers were usually more experienced, better educated, and tougher in comparison to teachers staffing lower-level courses. It could be that APs ARENT necessary in the outstanding, well-funded Northeast publics attended by children of an educated elite with high expectations. But I can say that here, AP is a sort of validation that the class at least TRIES to be academically demanding.</p>
<p>Exactly. I wish there were a more creative way to do it that also worked, but I think that's tougher than many people think.</p>