Wouldn’t be surprised if PA publics that underperformed expected graduation rates based on incoming students’ academic credentials had many students dropping out due to affordability issues, since (for those from lower income) PASSHEs are probably only barely affordable for commuters, while CSHEs (including branches) for commuters or residents and PASSHEs for residents are more expensive.
Again…here are stats rather than hearsay from newspaper articles. Passhe grad rates are on the national higher side.
https://collegecompletion.chronicle.com/state/#state=ny§or=public_four
Not sure I agree that newpaper articles are hearsay - their information sources are documented quite well. That said, if you look at the PA numbers in this posting, 12 of the 14 PASSHE schools fall below the PA Public State Average. Pretty much in line with the news data, with 2 of the system schools doing well, and the rest struggling.
Moody’s published a sector comment entitled “Higher education - Pennsylvania: Community college agreement with online education provider is credit negative for Pennsylvania four-year universities”…about Southern New Hampshire’s deal with the PA community colleges. Both PASSHEs and Temple specifically cited due to the relatively high number of transfer students coming from PA CCs.
This SNHU deal makes Daniel Greenstein’s job more difficult.
SNHU deal here: https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/01/10/snhu-steps-state-level-competition
Moody’s comments require a subscription.
Interesting clip. This certainly is an unattractive wildcard for the brick and mortar schools. Big changes are coming for all of education , including public secondary schools at some point.
I see that with West Chester, and if one counts 6 year rates only, Slippery Rock and Bloomsburg. Where do you see it with the 11 others?
I also note that the student aid per recipient is on the very low side nationally. That could be why our better students go elsewhere… (It IS why many go elsewhere at my school - costs for better students end up very similar or better at private schools.)
Doesn’t seem to be a figment of our imagination that Pitt is much better with aid either.
@creekland I was not comparing to the national average, I was comparing to the PA Public average. I agree regarding the comparison to national average, although several fall well below that, but not for PASSHE as an average (according the PASSHE web site). However, I don’t think PASSHE schools are so much in competition with out of state schools, as they are with PA schools. I didn’t have time to look at private numbers, but I’d say PASSHE is also in competition with private schools these days, as most private schools I’ve looked at (for my own children) offer sizable tuition discounts which bring their tuition in line with full pay tuition at PASSHE schools.
What school are you at? I am an LHU grad, and my sister is a Ship alum.
Based on https://collegecompletion.chronicle.com/state/#state=pa§or=public_four , it looks like:
- PA public university 4- and 6-year graduation rates are 41.6% and 62.9%.
- US public university 4- and 6-year graduation rates are 33.3% and 57.6%.
- 6 (2 PASSHE) out of 41 PA public universities have 4-year graduation rates > 41.6%.
- 6 (1 PASSHE) out of 41 PA public universities have 6-year graduation rates > 62.9%.
- 17 (7 PASSHE) out of 41 PA public universities have 4-year graduation rates > 33.3%.
- 10 (3 PASSHE) out of 41 PA public universities have 6-year graduation rates > 57.6%.
I work at a statistically average public high school in PA (since 1999). My own Alma mater is Va Tech. I spent 3/4 of my high school years in NY and 1/4 (10th grade) in FL. The NY and FL schools were great. It’s been an academic adjustment for me to work at an “average” public school, but our school has been making changes to improve and I like seeing that. I can only imagine what those lower than us are like when it comes to preparing students for a decent life (decent doesn’t have to mean college).
H and I have three lads who are all college graduates now. All three went to private OOS schools. For two of the three private was the cheaper option, though Pitt came in second for one of them (very high stats lad). For the third, schools in PA didn’t have his desired major/concentration when he left high school (tropical marine bio). He didn’t graduate with that major, but eh, that’s not really a big deal for us. We’re of the belief that going to college elsewhere (if affordable) is a good experience vs staying close to home. (Both H and I went to VT - OOS for both of us.) We’re also travelers by nature… That said, we certainly don’t push those values on others. At school with students I try to help them achieve their goals when we get on the topic of their future. It’s fun/rewarding to see most of their plans and how diverse they are. It’s also interesting seeing how they turned out when many return to share.
How much do cost constraints limit their plans, or cause them to take high levels of debt?
Those who take on high level of debt often regret it, but some do anyway seeing it as the only option. This isn’t to go to Ivy schools or typical on cc. It’s to go to school, period. Most are very cost conscious. Our high academic kids often get decent offers and need based aid tends to come into play for many. They have a little hook in being a rural zip code. Our average kids usually go to state schools (including cc) if they go to college.
Some join the military and let them pay for college afterward.
The saddest stories are those who got accepted and couldn’t afford it - often going into a job saying they would save money for later except later never comes. Some of those end up in the opiod crisis, probably as an escape. I often wondered what might have been. But then again, some really good students head off and major/minor in party - again - sometimes with drugs involved, and take a deep dive. That’s just as sad.
Once I heard a happy story in the mall when an ex student came up to me and my son telling me how he had changed his life around. He was a very capable student who had blown off school and went to work. Then he realized he was bored stiff doing a dead end job, so refocused with cc first. He ended up majoring in Physics and had a family plus enjoyable job. I wish there were more of those stories, but usually we can predict who will do well if they get the opportunity and avoid the pitfalls. It’s a character thing coupled with ability.
I look at the seniors now in their last semester and hope for the best for all of them while pitching in my best “cautions” and “go for its” as appropriate. Not all will go to college, but our world needs many niches filled.
It’s 6 years old but a very good read.
I especially like the 2nd to last sentence. I’ve been mentioning a similar thought for years. Add up all the endowments and the student loan debt problem is solved. The people who’ve really profited from endowments have been the Asset Managers with their fees.
All schools are guilty including the PASSHE schools. I use Cal U of PA as my baseline. Look at the spending the last 10 years on facilities.
This just was posted today. Interesting.
Fantastic links - some really good information, and you hit the nail on the head with your earlier comment about easy money being a problem. Those articles really add some detail to what I’ve been seeing at with my sons at private colleges, as well as with some OOS public scenarios. In essence, students with weaker academic profiles (whether via well heeled parents, or heavy borrowing) somewhat subsidize tuition for higher stat kids, by paying inflated tuition prices.
I’m sure some do not like this model, but when I honestly think about it, I think it’s probably the most fair for the simple reason that it rewards excellence , and places academics first. I like the idea that any kid, regardless of background, can find enhanced opportunity to further their education by working hard in high school. Especially today, with the wide range of opportunities that exist - with no cost. Khan Academy, something my youngest son utilized, is an amazing resource for education, as well as SAT prep, and is free.
In a smaller way, I think the PASSHE schools also have their own version of this merit model. While they do not offer as much in the way of merit aid or discounting, I believe they offer full tuition to any high school valedictorian or salutorian.
The only question I ponder is, if a student’s academics put them in a “full pay” situation, why attend a private school with such inflated tuition when they could save a lot of money at a PASSHE school? With so many options throughout PA, I can’t think it’s due to location.
PA’s problem is obvious in the Chancellor’s response – and note the order of them:
In other words, PA is treating its public college system as a jobs-driver, apparently first and foremost. Thus, a solution is barely education-related.
I can’t recall a val/sal going to a PASSHE school. If their academics are that good, there are a lot of schools willing to give them decent offers. They don’t need to go to a full pay school. One of ours turned down Stanford for one of three full rides she got elsewhere (went to Wake Forest and was very happy with her choice). Not many get into Stanford, but most are NMF and there are other places eager to have them. Ivy isn’t really a “thing” at our school. A few kids head to Cornell or Penn, but not many even try for those and those who do either have the $$ to pay for it or get need-based aid making it inexpensive if not free. One of our Cornell lasses wanted Botany. I’m not sure a PASSHE even offers that. She’s currently in grad school having done really well at Cornell. With Botany, I’m positive Cornell had more to offer even if a PASSHE school offered it. Penn St would have been an option, but if I recall correctly for her, Cornell was less expensive. Penn St isn’t good with aid.
At some colleges, botany may be a subarea of a general biology major, rather than a standalone major.
Of course, that means that a student looking for botany needs to dig through catalogs and faculty lists to see if colleges with only general biology have botany courses.
I seriously doubt the two would be equal caliber in courses or other opportunities. (PASSHE vs Cornell for Botany) Penn St, Purdue, VT, etc would be decent, but I know she doesn’t regret her choice at all.
The practical effect here is that college outcomes depend as much on parental financial resources as the student’s own academic achievement:
A. Strong (A in high school) student with lots of parental money: has choice of many colleges, including private, out-of-state, and “prestige” options. Should be able to finish in eight semesters.
B. Strong (A in high school) student with little parental money: can go to college, but limited to lower cost options, often commuting to nearby state schools (marginal affordability in PA), or undermatching in search of merit scholarships; a very few get into the good financial aid super selective private schools. Should be able to finish in eight semesters (and may have to if merit scholarships end then).
C. OK (B in high school) student with lots of parental money: has choice of many colleges, but not the more selective ones. Can still choose a residential experience and private or out-of-state schools. Parental money can accommodate extra semesters if necessary due to lower academic achievement.
D. OK (B in high school) student with little parent money: may be limited to commuting to the nearby state schools (marginal affordability in PA) if able to attend college at all. Less ability to stay for extra semesters if that becomes necessary. Being limited to nearby state schools may significantly limit the choice of majors available to the student, if s/he is able to attend college at all.
And category D can end up with major debt limited a little by needing a cosigner, but the debt still seems easy (to me) to get from some companies - not federal. If they end up not doing well in college, they drop out and still have to pay the debt. You can substitute trade school for college. The student can even finish trade school, but then end up with jobs paying $15-$18/hr (< 40K/yr) with significant debt to pay.
Our school is trying to get some of the latter the certificates they need in high school (via classes) to avoid the extra cost.
Categories A, B, and C tend to do ok with decent planning (or parents willing to remain there for kids to help them get started). Category D is way too common though. Most in our area fall into B or D. A few are in A/C. More fall between poor and lots of money (B+, D+?). They need loans too. That may be category D on cc. It’s almost average here, but there are many on free/reduced lunch which definitely puts them in D so I think they’d be the largest group overall other than many of these not being academically capable of college (the damage from poverty can run deep). The D+ aren’t in the free/reduced lunch group.