As a PA resident, can’t help but read these threads.
@ucbalumnus You had a pretty good breakdown in your post, but like Creekland’s school district, ours may have had a few kids in A & C at one time, but today most fall into D. Any families w/ money are not sending their kids to the public schools.
On another forum, colleges and costs come up a lot. From surveys and other data it seems even those kids going private, not selective, end up with costs around the cost of PASSHE schools, between $20K and $25K. I think many feel they are getting a better deal at the privates as they are so much more expensive to begin with. Like a friend of mine who always raves about how much money she saved at Kohl’s and seems surprised when I ask her how much she spent. Perception.
Many kids end up going locally. High costs on the nearby commutable colleges and Penn State branch campus. Many work along with taking the federal loans. Oldest DD took this route. Kids can spend years getting a BS degree. My S graduated Spring 2019, is working as an EE and most of his HS friends are still 2 or 3 years from their BS degrees.
Son ended up OOS on full tuition + engineering scholarships at University of Alabama. Penn State & Pitt only offered him $5K in scholarships. And I utterly refused to send him to PS branch. Forget them when Temple & UA were giving him so much more. He also utilized Pell grants & full federal loans.
Youngest is at West Chester with a scholarship. With living in traditional dorms, Pell & state grants, full loans as well, it is just barely affordable. She has to work FT during the summers, because now that the older 2 have graduated, there will not be any more grants.
So I think we have run the gamut of options available to most PA students who don’t have parents with lots of money.
@ucbalumnus Nice way to capture the landscape on finance, and I agree. I might suggest that scenario B is actually a bit more rosy than it may seem, as there seems to be much more aid money available for students with financial need, than for pure merit awards. So in essence, they can double dip, getting good merit as well as need based financial aid - especially if you factor in outside scholarships.
My family fits the A category, however I’ve had a strict policy with my sons - I pay room and board, they pay tuition. I always want my kids to maintain ambition and skin in the game. It has worked pretty well, as it has forced them to step up their game with academics, test preparation and scholarship research - both have full tuition deals now, to good but not amazing schools. I like how it’s forced them to work for their education, and it’s given them a sort of education on how life and the system works. But it’s amazing how many scholarships are closed to them because of our financials, or because of their gender/race. That’s not a complaint, merely an observation which has highlighted the vast opportunities for students with financial need.
By the way, I had a question. You used the word “undermatching” in your post under the B category. Does that mean looking at “less selective schools” whose student academic stats are much lower than your own stats? Just curious, as that’s what my boys have done so far to get the high merit aid.
The rosy view of need based aid tends to be over optimistic outside of a relatively small number of highly selective colleges (granted, many are heavily focused on here, but relatively few students get admitted to them) and perhaps in state publics in some states with much better need based aid than Pennsylvania.
Also, colleges often do not allow full stacking of merit scholarships on top of need based aid. For example, merit scholarships may only be allowed to stack up to replacing federal direct loans ($5,500) and student work or work study (a few thousand more) before need based grants are reduced.
So while need based aid looks like a lot to those not eligible for it, it is often not enough at many colleges to make them affordable to students with little parental money.
Yes, “undermatching” refers to attending a much less selective college than what one can get admitted to, usually due to financial or other non academic constraints.
Based on your description, it does look like your family could have been in group A, but you chose to move them partway to group B.
@ucbalumnus I’m not familiar with the stacking limitation. My youngest boy is getting 24.5k/yr in merit aid, but also has the $5500/yr federal unsub loan available. Are you saying there are some schools that would limit his merit aid to $5500?
I always assumed merit aid was separate from financial need aid, although some private “merit” scholarships certainly assess need as part of their decision criteria.
I only skimmed this thread, because I gave up on PA publics with my D19’s college search; I just wanted to chime in to vent: good riddance.
PSU/Pitt don’t count; they are public in name only and are ridiculously overpriced. I’m not sure what PSU does with its endowment other than pay for football frippery and lawsuit settlements. It offers little aid to its in-state applicants and seems to court OOS kids for their full-pay money.
The directionals are also overpriced for the quality offered. Neither of my kids are/will attend college in our home state.
I blame the legislature, ruled by entrenched men from rural western PA districts, 100%, who apparently do not believe in higher education at all. It’s too late to fix the problem. Students who can afford to get out are getting out; those who can’t afford to get out are just not going to college. This state is incredibly short-sighted.
Not all western pa men think higher ed is a waste. Most western pa people complain that Philly wags the dog. It’s at least double the population of Pittsburgh. LOL.
That said, I’m not for just throwing more money at higher ed in Pa to “fix” whatever problem is being touted for the day. It’s all been kicked around in the prior posts. Cheap money spent on the wrong things and wrong people when everyone knew that enrollment would be declining in the future. Money talked instead of logic and common sense. Should’ve gone to the students.
Been complaining for years that endowments are a farce. The only people who benefit are Asset Managers. Between Pitt and PSU they have at least $8 Billion and growing. I bet they got at least a 5% return last year. That’s $400 million right off the top. Anyone who doesn’t think higher ed is first and foremost big business is fooling themselves.
"Higher Education
Governor Wolf recognizes that too many Pennsylvanians are unable to attend institutions of higher education in our commonwealth without taking on significant debt.
Governor Wolf is creating a new $200 million scholarship program through the Pennsylvania State System of Higher Education (PASSHE) that will help more Pennsylvanians earn a degree with fewer loans, while encouraging educated young people to build their lives in Pennsylvania.
Governor Wolf is also proposing funding to support PASSHE’s education redesign that will make our state school system competitive and modern.
Governor Wolf is also investing $60 million with PHEAA for increases in grants for Pennsylvania students."
Interesting…seems like the $260M PASSHE/ investment could be a response to the PA community college/SNHU deal linked to above. The CC to SNHU (online) option may still be cheaper for students (and require fewer loans)…and if they are taking classes online, may be likely stay in PA as well.
Why not embrace the CC to SNHU path rather than throwing money at fighting it, invest more dollars in K-12, and streamline/optimize the PASSHEs? Seems like additional funding to the K-12s(beyond what’s being proposed) could have relatively greater impact on students’ futures.
You could be correct but you haven’t included the impact of the local communities that these universities reside in. Jobs, culture ans so on. Not to mention that lowering the cost at the passhe schools could provide a 4 year college experience to many that it may now be out of reach.
Also…SNHU is the new kid in school…everybody wants to date or be their friend. Not saying there is…but there could be a point of unintended consequences…PASSHE is a good system…time to make it better. Stop funding the PSU CC branches.
It could never be an expense problem could it? If we just give more money all our problems will go away. I think there’s a couple good things in the budget potentially but it’s mostly robbing Peter to pay Paul.
These articles aren’t completely unbiased. It’s all how it’s crafted. The PA budget increases every year overall. There’s less for higher ed because more is spent on pensions, healthcare and other things…and not infrastructure.
There’s also less students. It’s been that way. It will get worse. They aren’t coming back. Less students = less expenses.
Right size higher ed first, then come see me about more money. Maybe if it goes to the students directly. That should be the negotiating tactic. You want more scholarship money…Ok but you have to cut 10% of the bloat first.
Nobody wants to admit we’re broke. Just look at the US debt. It keeps growing. Look at all the fees that keep going up. Look at all the infrastructure that’s neglected. Where does the money go?
Pa legalized gambling and weed farming. Supposed to be a huge windfall. LOL.
Actually…Gov. Rendell created a budget that started the subsidies to the racing industry. Not sure I see this a steal from Peter to pay Paul situation. I see the long term future of Pennsylvania dependent on the youth and using the funds to educate the youth as opposed to fund the gambling racing industry is a no brainer and should be seen as a bold move that should have taken place years ago…but better late than ever.
Honestly, it sickens me that the same people that bash the PASSHE system criticize any attempt to make it better and reallocation from gambling/racing to higher education makes absolute sense.
Chmcnm…you make some good points. The fact that this solution can be done without raising taxes is a viable step. Not perfect for sure. I believe consolidation at some level is coming to the system. There still needs to be public higher education in PA and the system has good bones but needs some nutrition. It hasn’t had support in years and that is coming home to roost and I think the politicians are finally seeing that.
PASSHE now has a leader. Not a puppet, not a stand still and let it slowly die person, not a fake but an agent of change. This move will finally allow college and higher education as a choice for many that may not have one. Kudos to PASSHE…everyone had begun to count them out but they are re-positioning themselves and I think the future could be bright.
I’ve always thought any vice should be taxed and spent on education or infrastructure. At least there’s tangible benefits.
The horse racing fund was comical. Should’ve never been setup. The robbing Peter to pay Paul comment was a generalization of how these budgets eventually are worked out. Take money from X to pay for Y.
Lots of reading material in the newspapers, and in here, on the recent Wolf proposal. But when you cut to the chase, it comes down to more taxpayer money being the solution. Regardless of from where it comes, robbing Peter to pay Paul, even if you do not like Peter, is never wise. It distorts and hides the real problems, delaying the need for a true resolution, and the eventual day of reckoning.
Right now PASSHE is a leaky bucket, and all they’re doing is adding water - without any serious attempt to reform. I’m not totally against using tax money for stuff like this, but throwing money at a system that will not admit and correct it’s mistakes is only asking for a bigger problem down the road. It’s ironic that the new PASSHE scholarship fund was announced at LHU, which is my alma mater. LHU, like about 11 of the other PASSHE schools, is operating at about 55-60% capacity. Increased govt money for students may offer a slight increase in enrollment in the short term, but in no way will it achieve the kind of increase it needs to restore financial sustainability. We know the demographic reality, this is not a mystery.
PASSHE needs a plan to reduce capacity and costs in line with the demographic realities. Only then should they consider any further use of taxpayer money.
PASSHE and many other schools used the “Field of Dreams” business model. Build it and they will come. They’ve had access to cheap and easy money so why not. It’s not just higher ed. The problem was they knew all about the demographic headwinds the whole time but kept on growing.
Now they want to use “Field of Dreams” version 2. Pass out scholarships and they will come. Basically a subsidy. Simple economics tells that they will get a short-term bump but then what? They’ll have to keep the money flowing forever but that might be the plan. It’s not just the schools they’re trying to keep afloat but the small towns that are home to the schools.
Enrollment is down 20% over the last 10 years and will get much worse after 2026. It’s not a funding issue, it’s demographics. Until they’re willing to talk reorg and reduction it’s just window dressing. In the private sector when a company loses 20% of its customers there will be cuts and changes.
It’s really a shame. Some of my best memories are going to summer camps at Cal U. Also took some summer classes there when I was in high school. Lots of good people and professors. The whole system got away from what was intended.
Perception.