<p>That is a hoot, Marite!</p>
<p>Yes, I always love when I read the difference in rank given to surrounding city for Barnard vs Columbia -- since they're right across the street for each other.</p>
<p>As to the article on Harvard. With apologies to Marite, for whom I have the greatest respect and affection, I have to say I believe it is a great argument for Columbia, and that the excerpts given here (about the level of academic engagement and effort and about the effects of the scattershot core curriculum) very much reflect the sense my son got when visiting both and making his choice last year. </p>
<p>As to the issue of fit, here's my definition: ending up at a college where that particular student feels comfortable and engaged enough to take reach out and advantage of all the opportunities it has to offer.</p>
<p>Maybe we see those comments about Harvard most often because they most often reflect what the students actually feel? (I think the core curriculum is great -- for some -- and a great hindrance to others. What I think is striking about Harvard's is the high degree of ambivalence on the part of the faculty as to what they believe it is trying to accomplish.)</p>
<p>If I worked so hard to get into Harvard (or anywhere else) only to have my papers graded by a TA, I might feel ripped off, too. I think the main reason they get the most complaints is that there is the largest disconnect between the appearance (the nation's premier institution of higher learning) and what students, who were already privileged to begin with and expected the best, actually experience. I'm sure the reality is much worse at Muskogee State, but student expectations were not that high to begin, and they had already been "educated" to expect little, so what's to write?</p>
<p>Every school has unhappy campers. I think the difference is that students don't think they can turn Harvard down, and therefore, perhaps more go to Harvard because it's Harvard. We heard lots of comments along the lines of: if one of my kids gets into Harvard, that's where he's going, etc etc.</p>
<p>I agree that the core curriculum is not for everyone. But it sounds as if it might have been what the man who wrote the article was seeking. I should have mentioned U of Chicago as well -- a place that has both a core and excellent opportunities for faculty interaction. The point is that for someone who really is seeking a wonderful undergraduate liberal arts education, Harvard is not necessarily the place, and that was the impression my son took away, as well as the impression given by the excerpts here.</p>
<p>There are students who are a great fit at Harvard. I think there is no place like it for the true prodigy, the kid who has already genuinely found his or her passion, and is therefore ready to propose that independent study Northstarmom mentioned, or to fly off and offer economic advice to Latin American governments, or to cluster with some of the top math brains in the world in the hardest freshman math class. Harvard's opportunities for such students are difficult to match.</p>
<p>Carolyn- how right you are..confused am I. Will track this article down..the Princeton one was demoralizing..</p>
<p>Mini- I hear myself making that same comment about a lot of schools...what is so special about a school (HS, college whatever) which takes smart kids from educated families and turns out smart kids...shouldn't be so tough!! </p>
<p>Why Harvard gets picked on...the same reason Harvard gets picked...If it is held to an even microscopically different standard, so be it.</p>
<p>Harvard is not the right fit for every student admitted there. I have heard some horror stories about kids who hated it, who transferred, etc. On the other hand, I have a kid there and it has been a wonderful fit for him. He has not found grade inflation, possibly because he is majoring in hard sciences and minoring in humanities. He has made wonderful friends who are very interesting and not uni-dimensional.
He has found mentors in not just The College but in the Business and Law schools. He has taken graduate courses. He also took off a few years to follow his heart and run a business related to his main extracurricular. We are thrilled with the opportunities afforded him and how he's taken advantage of all that's been offered. But I bet he would've flourished at any number of top schools. Can't say the same about my other kids!!</p>
<p>Maybe Harvard has more disgruntled students because more people apply there for all the wrong reasons... But after reading the articles linked below my daughter decided not to apply to either Harvard or Yale.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=350153%5B/url%5D">http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=350153</a>
<a href="http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=350154%5B/url%5D">http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=350154</a></p>
<p>From one of the articles cited by nngmm, a statement by a student who transfered into Harvard from Carnegie Mellon: "There is a lot of melodrama here. Students criticize Harvard as a university, but the problems they cite are typical anywhere. They dont realize this because they lack a different perspective." </p>
<p>I think that is the gist of it. Unless I hear from a transfer student who has been to more than one school, one of them being Harvard (e.g., Washington Post columnist Jay Mathews) about Harvard, how do I know how much perspective the student has?</p>
<p>Sac: You know I would have loved my S to experience a real core curriculum a la Columbia and Chicago. But it's his education and his choice. </p>
<p>Mini: Many students would be better off having their papers graded by a TF who only has 18 students in the section rather than a prof with 2 classes capped at 50 each and no TF. </p>
<p>I do see an issue with admissions at Harvard, beyond the fact that so many apply for the wrong reasons and accept "because it's Harvard." Harvard seems to go out of its way to build a class by focusing on ECsand seeking to attract students who excel at sports, arts, community service, politics, what have you. Such students continue their ECs at Harvard, often to the detriment of their studies. They can do so because of the calendar, whereby final exams are held in mid-January. This makes for rather unhappy Christmas vacations spent in libraries or labs; but it also lulls a lot of students into slacking during the term. They can get away with it because they're smart and they engage in massive cramming. But it makes them unhappy and it leads them to believe they are not learning anything in class: they probably aren't if they don't attend and don't do the homework.</p>
<p>Mini is right. This is an old, old truism that it's much harder to get into the Ivies & 7S than to stay in or graduate. This was the case when I was in college at Wheaton (MA) in 1969, and the Ivies were a lot smaller then-- less than 4000 undergrads at Harvard & Radcliffe, maybe only 2200 at Dartmouth. Plus, some of them still had the remnants of a real "core" back then. From my high school class we had many go east to college, including H, Y, D, P, Swarthmore, Mt. Holyoke, and the boys at the Ivies all said the same thing--the coursework was not as difficult as expected. </p>
<p>In case anyone is interested, one college guide I haven't seen mentioned here is "Choosing the Right College" which has an indepth essay on each of 150 selective college/universities gained from on-campus visits. Each essay includes a listing of the courses one should take if he is determined to get a "classical" liberal arts core. Available online, google it.</p>
<p>Question, it the AM article author an statistical outlier or an out an out liar? BTW Marite, this is just a lame attempt at some humor.</p>
<p>To pick up on Tokenadult's comments, when we visited Yale, the guide happily told us that Yale only had distribution requirements but no core (unlike some nameless competitor to the North). :)</p>
<p>" I think the difference is that students don't think they can turn Harvard down, and therefore, perhaps more go to Harvard because it's Harvard. "</p>
<p>Agree Sac. Too many kids are following the Jim Jones approach to college admissions - drinking the kool-aid. Is Harvard a good place for every 1600, 4.0 with fabulous ECs and $160k in the bank? Nooooo. Smart kids who don't feel the "fit" shouldn't apply....and some who are admitted should go elsewhere. You CAN, and sometimes should, turn down HYPSM. </p>
<p>I blame the parents for all of this "you should go here" pressure. Harvard is only as good as those who graduate...and if they're unhappy and dissatisfied, that's what Harvard becomes. Same holds true for all schools. </p>
<p>After reading those student opinion websites, I'm convinced that a good % of kids dislike their shcools. I searched across many schools, and found many unhappy students at Ivies and elsewhere. The funny thing is, the kids seem to be unhappy about the very issues that are already well-known about the school. Why is anyone shocked about this stuff once they arrive on campus? 15 minutes of research can surface the problem areas for most school - and I believe what I read! When I read the student opinions on Penn the concensus was that the kids were self-absorbed rich kids obsessed with grades and making money. Well, when I was on campus I remarked at the apparent wealth of the students - so I believe what I've read. I socialized it with my son who thought that was a perfectly fine place to spend 4 years. Believe what you read.</p>
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<blockquote> <p>After reading those student opinion websites, I'm convinced that a good % of kids dislike their shcools. I searched across many schools, and found many unhappy students at Ivies and elsewhere. <<</p> </blockquote>
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<p>That all schools have SOME unhappy students was exactly my point. But for most good schools I'd be surprised if the percentage of unhappys is very high. As much as it pains me to use the old Nixonian term "Silent Majority", I think the students most likely to bother to write a review in the first place are the ones with an axe to grind. The happy students are mostly too busy enjoying their college experience to worry about writing something for a college opinion website.</p>
<p>True Coureur - what's interesting, though, is that those with an axe to grind are usually all gridining it over the same few issues at any given school. In other words, the few students with the problem all had the same problem. When I read that some students feel that a certain school is full of self-absorbed students, I suspect that it might be true.....and I also assume that most students don't care. But, if you're very sensitive to such things, you should consider yourself warned. Same with Harvard and the TAs....I bet most students don't care....but those who do should take heed.</p>
<p>There is such a thing as "TRANSFER" and even out of Harvard if someone doesn't like somewhere they can just leave.....no one's holding them hostage there.....There's a poster here who transferred from Columbia to Dartmouth, and a niece of mine transferred from Yale to Dartmouth....can be done...</p>
<p>I think Harvard is being unfairly singled out here. I have always complained about my education at Brown that you were forced to learn more than you wanted about too few things. I realize that makes me sound somewhat lacking in intellectual curiosity, but the opposite is true. Remember that famous New Yorker saying about more than you wanted to know about penguins? </p>
<p>My initial conclusion, after reading the article in The Atlantic, was that it would be smart to go to a better high school. It seems as though the distribution requirements assume that one arrives at college with a strong base of knowledge and ready to go deeper -- a dubious assumption, even when a student has taken many APs. Agree with Sac that Columbia and others like it (UChicago? anywhere else?) are providing more of a foundation, especially with their new emphasis on adding science to the core. The European alternative, focusing all learning in one specific area, is certainly not an improvement. </p>
<p>However, knowledge expands and changes, and in today's world it is increasingly specialized. In the long run I suppose one can trust that learning a smorgasboard (sp?) prepares one for a lifetime as an adult learner, which is what I see as the real goal.</p>
<p>There are 23 students in my D's dorm at Harvard. She knows them all pretty well. According to her, 19 or 20 of them are very happy at Harvard and 3 or 4 are varying degrees of unhappy. I suspect that sample is a reasonable cross-section of what you might find in the school at large.</p>
<p>"Mini: Many students would be better off having their papers graded by a TF who only has 18 students in the section rather than a prof with 2 classes capped at 50 each and no TF."</p>
<p>Yup. I can't see why for $168k one should be expected to put up with either. (But, no, having been one of those TAs - at UChicago -- it is NOT better. I could often have given better lectures than some of the famous profs, but almost never could I provide the kind of guidance and mentoring that could have been a life-changing experience for some of my students.)</p>
<p>My son is at Yale....we read the articles linked above, and as a parent, I felt that Yale was a more friendly environment for a young adult. Certainly I have had the impression that one must "walk on water" to even be considered for Harvard... on average about 6 kids from Maine a year are admitted to Harvard. Interestingly enough, one of the Yale deans did their PHD at Harvard.....the impression this individual has is that many of the students at Harvard are constantly afraid of being exposed as being a fraud, that they really don't know as much as everyone thinks, they really aren't able to excel at so many different EC's and lead all the time.....and that this fear makes them all exhausted and paranoid and tentative and aggressive all at the same time. Scary, huh? </p>
<p>That is not the sense that I have so far about my son's freshman peers at Yale. They seem to be genuinely open to learning, like their classes and they are having fun while participating in sports, clubs, intramurals etc. </p>
<p>When it comes to "fit", the most intriguing application I saw was the one from Columbia. It asked what books the kids had read in last 12 mos, what plays they had seen and what they meant to them. I forget all the things it inquired about, but it was without a doubt the most solicitious app of personal information from which one could truly get to know the candidates. You just can't really fake your answers to those questions. My son did not apply to Columbia, and I was a bit sad because I thought it would be great to go to a school that really wanted to know about him. </p>
<p>I agree that Harvard seems to be atop the education pinnacle, and my reaction is that is great. Let them take all the heat, all the hits etc and let all the other great schools, IVY, LACS, State Universities, continue to be themselves. </p>
<p>While I agree that it is hard to miss important factoids about a school that might determine a fit, one of my "summer sitters" chose Miami of Ohio and did well there. What she didn't know was that the Frat/Sorority world was such a factor...and that it would affect her experience, because she was not a Frat/Sorority person. Did she miss that it was big there? or did she not know about what her reaction would be to something she had never experienced before? Sometimes fit only because measureable once you are in the situation. One friend took her daughter to look at a great top 20 LAC and her daughter would not get out of the car, she had such a visceral reaction to the campus. Do we listen to teenage vibes? Does financial aid
trump visceral reaction? Tying ourselves with needing the "best" of anything for the wrong reason is always a mistake. The intentions can be good but the outcome can be tough. My brother got into the top state school where we lived years ago, not because of academic ability, but due to athletic prowess. He always felt inferior and had to work sooo much harder than roomates/friends. Not a good situation. The intent was to get him the best education he could get. The result was an inferiority complex that still lingers. </p>
<p>I don't take any one article, any one opinion as the truth.....that is why CC is so helpful, because it provides so many vantage points on a wide variety of issues and topics. I really appreciate all of the regulars and their insight, experience, opinions. It all is very helpful.</p>