<p>I think Marite is making a mistake about the Grandes Ecoles. May I respectfully remind her that what costs the State so much is not the Grandes Ecoles per se but the prep classes taken at public lyc</p>
<p>The French university system is indeed inferior to the American one, mainly because of the lack of money and campuses, and that is particularly true in the sciences because of the price of lab equipment. On the other hand, for the humanities, law etc....., a student who is motivated and knows what he wants to do can get an excellent education. Don't forget that most of the surveys on Inter'l universities are based on science results. Formerly, the French lyc</p>
<p>Lost in translation:</p>
<p>The statistics that are relevant to Christopher Newfield's argument are not what it costs students to attend a college but the approportioning of resources to particular universities or groups of universities. According to Elaine Sciolino (ln the IHT article I linked to), the Grandes Ecoles educate 4% of the total student population but consume 30% of the higher education budget. I do not think this kind of imbalance can be found in the US, despite the fact that top private schools are indeed better endowed than others in the both the public and private higher education sector.</p>
<p>One of my brothers attended a Grande Ecole (engineering); the other went to Nanterre for math. Granted, their experiences were many years apart, but they were also night and day. </p>
<p>While I agree that a French lyc</p>
<p>Marite,</p>
<p>Are there many Asian students in France and how well do they perform?</p>
<p>I was looking at the results of the International Math Olympiad 2007 was was surprised at the lack of Asians on the French and German teams, in contrast to teams from Britain and Sweden. US, Canada, Australia etc. are countries of immigrants so they don't really "count" in this case.</p>
<p>I also find the performance of Western Europe as a whole disappointing.</p>
<p>I don't really know, Canuckguy. </p>
<p>I am not sure it is a good idea to judge the state of education in a country by the results of international competitions such as IMO. Much depends, as in the Olympics, on the amount of resources the state is willing to throw at a very very few talented individuals identified when very very young. For example, Vietnam has done very well in the IMO, especially considering its GNP. But that does not mean that its k1-2 education is superior to that of France, Germany or Britain. The PRC has won medals in gymnastics and swimming. That does not mean that most Chinese even know how to swim.</p>
<p>I think marite's comment on Chinese universities suffers the same problem as the view of people outside the US looking at the US university system. They may have heard about a few of the prestigious US universities, they have not heard about many of the less prestigious but still wonderful state universities.</p>
<p>In any country, there are huge disparities between the top and the bottom universities, and China is no exception. However there are still many fine regional universities. Here is the ranking of the top 50. </p>
<p><a href="http://www.edu.cn/20041125/3122042.shtml%5B/url%5D">http://www.edu.cn/20041125/3122042.shtml</a></p>
<p>It should be noted the ranking counts really heavy on graduate and research score, and indeed the usual suspect of Tsinghua and Peking came up on top. However if you look at the undergraduate score (which counts very little in the final ranking), more than a dozen other universities are ahead.</p>
<p>Bomgeedad:</p>
<p>I DO know something about Chinese universities, Bomgeedad.</p>
<p>Remember that the Chinese universities must cater to a population of 1.322 billions as opposed to 301 millions for the US. We're not talking about a few pockets of excellence but about a whole system.</p>
<p>I do not deny that there are some fine universities in China besides Tsinghua and Beida. Even so, the list of 50 is not all that impressive. I know the reputation of quite a few of the universities on the list, and they are okay; by no means world class. But there many more besides those 50that are truly lacking in quality and resources.</p>
<p>My point is that there are some fine universities in China outside of Beijing. Of course they are not world class, since China admits that even Tsinghua and Peking do not make the top 100 in the world.</p>
<p>Did I ever say otherwise?
This is what I wrote:</p>
<p>
[quote]
China, indeed is making huge strides, but again there is huge disparities in the quality of education between what is available at some of the top Beijing universities and what is available in the hinterland. And in Shanghai, profs complain they have no students. On paper they do, hundreds of them. But the students do not come to class; they're probably too busy making money.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Can you pinpoint to where I am trashing Beida or Tsinghua? Where I display my ignorance of Chinese higher education? The complaint by Shanghai profs is from profs at Fudan (#4 on the list). I heard it only three days ago but it has been going on since the economic reforms.</p>
<p>Canuckguy:
members of the French IMO are chosen after a nationwide competition in 11th grade and another similar but even more competitive one in 12th grade. 90 % of competitors come from the top French lyc</p>
<p>
[quote]
"Some Grandes </p>
<p>Having served multiple times as a visiting professor at several French schools, including Sciences Po, I'd like to observe that:</p>
<p>1) The greatest strengths of French elite schools are their selectivity and, in the technical subjects, the rigorous course requirements. In the social sciences, the curriculum seems more uneven.</p>
<p>2) With regards to research, standards for hiring and promotion, and funds to support research facilities at all levels (undergrad to prof), France has fallen far behind the leading US schools. This is the opinion of many French scholars.</p>
<p>For example, see:
<a href="http://journalism.berkeley.edu/projects/euromedia/archives/001780.html%5B/url%5D">http://journalism.berkeley.edu/projects/euromedia/archives/001780.html</a></p>
<p>The report by Cohen and Aghion has engendered much comment, but there is little doubt that research performance/support are behind that of North America. </p>
<p>3) My general observation even at the prestigious ecoles was that facilities were lacking relative to US private elites and most large R1 state schools. Profs who've spent time at mid tier US state schools (let alone the USNews top 25) all noted how much better the amenities were for students and professors.</p>
<p>As Daniel Cohen wrote in Le Monde on 9/15/05
"tout universitaire qui a mis les pieds dans une universit</p>
<p>"Todo estudiante universitario que ha puesto los pies en una universidad americana, comprende enseguida que se ha posado en otro planeta"</p>
<p>"Any university student who has set foot inside an american university, realizes right away that he has landed in another planet"</p>
<p>
[quote]
Not all Grandes Ecoles are equal. Okay, maybe facilities and pedagogy are top-notch at Sciences Po (marite's brother's alma mater) or ENA, but many Grandes Ecoles suffer from poor infrastructure, indifferent or non-existent teaching, outdated or non-existent libraries or common facilities, the list goes on. No freshman orientation? Tu rigole. Bathrooms? Try the "turkish toilet" not cleaned since the student revolt in 1968. Textbooks? Never saw one.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>With all due respect I don't know what major Grande Ecole would fit your above description. What schools were you actually admitted to? </p>
<p>All of the original Grandes Ecoles (mostly engineering schools) are very well funded and have very modern facilities and infrastucture, even by US standards. (</p>
<p>cellardweller-- yes, you are right about the technical schools. That is really sad for someone like me.</p>
<p>I wasted two years of my life at the Ecole des Beaux-Arts, a school founded in 1634, whose reputation in the arts today is basically moribund. I passed my UVs and learned a damn good Parisian argot, but that was about it. Frustration led me to the inscription process at the Ecole des Arts Decoratifs, another famous school with unfortunately retrograde thinking and a protectionist, lazy staff.</p>
<p>I can only speak of my own experiences, but I will say a comparison of the exciting work coming out of art and design schools in the US and the UK clearly tells the tale.</p>
<p>Re: my mention of libraries -- I personally used the huge art library now part of the Bib. Nationale, and I was in the Beaubourg library quite a bit, but I don't know any fellow Beaux-Arts or Arts Deco students who ever went to libraries. Strange thing too -- we had free passes to all the National Museums, but my fellow students never went, and the profs not only never encouraged us, they DIScouraged us. From going to the Louvre! Which was just across the Seine.</p>
<p>
[quote]
total enrollment in the Grandes Ecoles is very small relative to the overall French university population which struggles under third world conditions. It has been said the France provides adequate tertiary education for a population of 6 million not 60 million!
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Is the USA any different, except for the higher prices and more comfortable conditions?</p>
<p>The Grandes Ecoles account for 4% of the total population and 30% of the budget. While the very top US colleges also account for a small percentage of the total student population, they do not account for that much of a percentage in expenditures. Further the quality of education and accommodations at second and even third tier universities are not so very inferior, whereas the difference between a Grande Ecole and other institutions of higher learning is extremely pronounced.</p>
<p>I recently visited a local community college. It is a residential college, in a suburban location. The campus is leafy, the facilities are up to the minute, the accommodations for students are very comfortable. </p>
<p>American education is expensive, yes, but some aspects of French education leave one scratching one's head. One French prof I know lives in the provinces and goes to Paris once every two weeks on the TGV to meet with his students. Another, who was being considered for a job at an American university was not happy to learn that, yes, indeed, he would be expected to teach four courses per year. The Department that had considered him for a tenured position became equally unhappy at his reluctance to teach and decided not to offer him the job after all.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I am not sure it is a good idea to judge the state of education in a country by the results of international competitions such as IMO.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>You are absolutely right. I was really reacting to the numerous times British folks have made disparaging remarks about Canadian school standards to me, often on a first meeting. After I looked at PISA 2000 and TIMMS 1999, I begin to wonder where that idea comes from.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Moreover, and it would be interesting in another thread to discuss why, second and third generation orientals are far less competitive than in the US. their global school results are generally mediocre.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Very interesting. I doubt there is enough interest to start another thread though. Two possibilities come to mind. Is France getting a "lower tier" of immigrants, or is French culture simply hostile to immigrants?</p>
<p>My limited understanding of French Canada makes me suspect the latter. What is your theory?</p>
<p>Not much of a theorym but for what it's worth, here are some observations:</p>
<p>The Vietnamese who went to France in the 1950s (or earlier) are fully integrated into French society and have done as well as the general French population, as far as I know. Some have risen to the very top positions in French academia or government. I don't know about those who came to France after 1975, but I assume, they, too, are well assimilated. I don't know if they are more or less striving than first generation immigrants.</p>
<p>Immigrants from Africa present different profiles and isses. There is definitely racism at work. My niece is married to a Senegalese who has had trouble parlaying his university education into job; my niece, on the other hand, suffers no such problems, even though her degree is similar to his. A lot of immigrants from North Africa are Muslims, and they have trouble with the French educational establishment (there are recurring controversies over the wearing of the veil in French schools under the name of secularism, but no one ever makes a fuss when students wear very prominent crosses). As well, many of them live in substandard housing in the outer banlieues which function as our own inner cities. These were the areas that erupted in flames a couple of years ago.</p>
<p>Who told you, Marite, that prominent crosses are permitted? They are not, except in private Catholic schools which are, I'll admit, generally of a higher standard than other religion-affiliated schools. Shades of the jesuits. The whole basis of French secondary education, as you very well know, is that it is free, state-controlled rather than Church, and compulsory until 16.
Canuckguy, as marite, who seems to be heavily into French bashing at the moment aptly put in a previous post, many French people lack work ethic. Having taught for over 13 years in a inner city middle school, I could not help but noticing that first generation orientals, mainly chinese and corean, were brought up to respect the authority of elders, including teachers, and to believe that they could succeed through school. Those whose parents had been educated in France were far more laid back about schoolwork and tended to be identical to their French peers in such attractive occupations as talking in class, ragging teachers and perfecting their cheating skills.</p>