Scholarship Gobbling

Parents Forum
81

<p>I think if those scholarships were out there for everyone to gobble up and this kid (or his parents) had the wherewithall to do the work to find them and apply for them, no one should complain. (I am assuming they were not need based)</p>

<p>It was obvious one girl at sr awards night at S’s HS school had scoured for scholarships. She got a ton of them <em>I</em> had never heard of. Good on her I say, boo on me and my S, who had he/we researched them probably would have come away with a few.</p>

<p>He got one of the two he applied for.</p>

82

<p>two kids in my town just got a grand each from the water resources board. Apparently the scholarship goes to students with an interest in… water.</p>

83

<p>The Op tells us: “So, bottom line, I’m not envious of the boy’s scholarship success, but I am discouraged, as always, by a system that allows the rich and powerful to so often win all the marbles, and I do feel there are some ethical issues to wrestle with here with respect to the parents.”</p>

<p>I won’t touch if I agree or not that she isn’t envious. I cannot agree on the position that the kid got his scholarship because his parents were rich and powerful. Surely the Op isn’t suggesting the rich parents bribed all those scholarship committees? The family was diligent, aware, attentive, timely and thorough. In my book, those are good qualities.
I can see there might be ethical issues, but I see different ones than the Op sees. I see [some other]parents who raise a kid that isn’t attentive to the many options available to him, and as a result loses out on educational opportunities. Parents like that have done their child a disservice. What kind of parent WANTS to choose to limit their child’s potential? Maybe it’s just a bit of the Republican in me, but isn’t that a big part of what this country is all about? Providing opportunities for all and those who make the most of it will then rise? Those who try harder often get more, and I think that’s a good thing. Kids that don’t read their scholarship opportunity packets cannot blame <em>the system</em>, <em>minorities</em>, their families’ economic status, or <em>the rich and powerful</em>. Sadly, poorer families may put less emphasis on college opportunities, so a cycle may persist. Denying the wealthier of an equal opportunity just so that more of the poorer can grab the pie seems as unfair to me as denying the poor to permit the wealthier to have more opportunities.</p>

84

<br>

<br>

<p>Rich and powerful don’t win the local scholarships at our school. The need component knocks them out.</p>

85

<p>While I agree with many of posters’ comments thus far, I can definitely understand the point the OP is trying to get at. I too greatly respect any student who shows the ambition to go out and actively search for and apply for outside scholarships. Additionally filling out applications, as mentioned, entails a good amount of work on top of students’ normal workloads, so we should definitely applaud them for that. Nevertheless, there is a difference between filling out an application for a scholarship which you found on your own and filling out an application simply because the your college counselor told you to. In the first case, the student went through the process of identifying, obtaining, and filling out the application. In the second case, a good chunk of the work (finding any and all viable scholarship opportunities) has been delegated to a third party, aka the college counselor, for which the student’s parents are paying. In short, the counselor is handing the student application after application to fill out. IMHO, this removes the important aspect of self-motivation from the scholarship search process, at least for the student (I won’t touch the parents). In addition, at least in the case of the student in the original post, there is evidence of manufactured ECs, and oftentimes affluent families will send their kids to pricey SAT classes (there is a thread somewhere which shows the strong correlation between income and SAT score) and hire private tutors–all amenities which lower-income families cannot afford, but which nevertheless pad qualifications considered by scholarship committees alongside race, need, and other specific criteria.</p>

<p>As a side note, I know that posts are not meant to be taken personally (most of the time :P), but as a student whose parents own a struggling business, I find some of the insinuations in this thread about the “motivation” and “initiative” of potential lower-class scholarship recipients purely along class lines somewhat atrocious. While students from lower-income families are criticized for not going out of their way to find and apply for scholarships, affluent families can conveniently pawn a portion of the work off to a college counselor and not to incur any judgment. The money they invest generates more wealth for them, whereas poorer families have no money to invest in this regard to begin with. As for me personally, I was fairly well-qualified applicant, am a member of a minority group, and have need, and yet I only received 2 of the 5 scholarships for which I applied. Yes, I could have applied for something like 12 scholarships, as mentioned, but the point is I didn’t apply with any sense of entitlement and I obviously wasn’t cut any slack. There are many proactive, low-income scholarship seekers out there, just as there are many, if not more, lazy, uncommitted, wealthy scholarship non-seekers. I feel like it would be more beneficial to make judgments of students based on their character rather than generalize along socioeconomic lines, IMO.</p>

<p>On a more positive note, I agree wholeheartedly with the OP on the idea of providing scholarship workshops for lower-income students. Obviously, nothing is stopping students who may or may not have need from applying for as many scholarships as possible, so it is up to the people for whom many scholarships were originally intended to step up to the plate and show scholarship committees that they are indeed worthy of their financial support. Otherwise, I see no reason to think that the awarding of scholarships, along with many other aspects of the college application process, is as meritocratic and free from the influence of the wealthy as some people would have me believe.</p>

86

<p>“Nevertheless, there is a difference between filling out an application for a scholarship which you found on your own and filling out an application simply because the your college counselor told you to.”</p>

<p>While it’s true that the student who finds and fills out applications on their own is showing more motivation, the bottom line is to get scholarships, a student has to fill out the apps. That still takes work, and a student has to be willing to do that work. The counselor can’t force the student to do that work. </p>

<p>Nothing prevented the other students’ parents from seeking out scholarships and attempting to make their offspring fill them out. My experience with mentoring and teaching lots of students is that very few students seek out and fill out applications completely on their own. Hats off to the students who do, but most students aren’t like that.</p>

<p>So that they knew about scholarship opportunities, I registered my kids with Fastweb several years before they were high school seniors. Neither paid attention to the information. Older S filled out and got scholarships (including being offered a $20,000 national one) because I literally stood over him and forced him to do that. Younger S filled out one app on his own – one that he was invited to apply for by his first choice college. He filled out two others because I forced him to. He is now a rising college junior with good grades and ECs, and he would be a good scholarship candidate, but doesn’t bother to fill out scholarships even though he is going into debt to pay for college.</p>

<p>“I was fairly well-qualified applicant, am a member of a minority group, and have need, and yet I only received 2 of the 5 scholarships for which I applied. Yes, I could have applied for something like 12 scholarships, as mentioned, but the point is I didn’t apply with any sense of entitlement and I obviously wasn’t cut any slack. There are many proactive, low-income scholarship seekers out there, just as there are many, if not more, lazy, uncommitted, wealthy scholarship non-seekers. I feel like it would be more beneficial to make judgments of students based on their character rather than generalize along socioeconomic lines, IMO.”</p>

<p>Getting 2 of 5 scholarships that you applied for is an excellent yield. </p>

<p>" There are many proactive, low-income scholarship seekers out there, just as there are many, if not more, lazy, uncommitted, wealthy scholarship non-seekers."</p>

<p>Sorry, but I’ve worked very closely with lots of students – this includes running mentorship programs and scholarship programs, teaching in a college which had a high proportion of low income students, and volunteering in low income schools – and that’s simply not true. I am sure that this is hard for you to believe because it was hard for me to believe until I started running scholarship programs. The person who initially told me what I’ve said here was another black woman who was running a scholarship program that I eventually took over. I didn’t believe what I’ve posted here until I saw it.</p>

<p>“On a more positive note, I agree wholeheartedly with the OP on the idea of providing scholarship workshops for lower-income students.”</p>

<p>The idea sounds wonderful, and I hope it works. I’ve offered such workshops, and the people who came were the middle income and affluent people and their kids. The only low income students who came were first generation Americans, who were a very small proportion of the low income people who could have come. I have nothing against immigrants’ kids; my father was an immigrant. However, immigrants’ kids tend to have a lot of hustle, and do an excellent job of finding opportunities for themselves. Sadly, the students who on the whole aren’t doing much to find or follow through with opportunities for themselves are poor kids of native born American parents.</p>

<p>I’m not kidding when I say that if scholarships were awarded by lottery, such kids would be likely to buy tickets. When I lived in Detroit and volunteered doing parenting and similar workshops in poor school districts, one school administrator said that she was able to attract lots of parents by offering door prizes. What would seem bizarre, even condescending to middle class and affluent parents seems attractive and welcoming to lower income parents. </p>

<p>“Otherwise, I see no reason to think that the awarding of scholarships, along with many other aspects of the college application process, is as meritocratic and free from the influence of the wealthy as some people would have me believe.”</p>

<p>Wealth helps with everything. However, the Internet has leveled the playing field a great deal for people who take advantage of it. Just look at the wealth of info that’s available for free on CC. To get this info, all one has to do is use the Internet, something that even poor people can do at school or at their public libraries.</p>

87

<p>You mean that people with more resources to spend can hire professionals to do things for them that other people can’t? I’m shocked, just shocked! </p>

<p>Oh, please. What would you suggest? That we outlaw college counselors? That we make them give their services free? That kids must designate on their applications that they didn’t find out about the scholarships themselves? </p>

<p>Sorry, that’s not the way it works. Nor is it the way it should work. If you want to “level the playing field” by making these services available regardless of ability to pay, then go for it. Start a 501(c)(3) and open shop.</p>

88

<p>NSM: You always so much wisdom to these boards, and I really appreciate you sharing your experience with scholarship searching–experience that perhaps I should’ve been more sensitive to. While it’s difficult for me to believe what you said about your dealings in the scholarship business (Frankly, I don’t WANT to believe it), I understand that I can’t dispute your own lived experiences. I guess I’ll just have to start with my own kids when I’m old and frail and still impoverished by debtload from college.</p>

<p>Chedva: I apologize if I was overly abrasive or caustic in my initial post to warrant such a response. I simply think that scholarships should go to those who need them most. That’s all. While I’m obviously not in a position as a strapped college student to open whatever kind of organization you suggest, as you can see this thread served as an impetus for another poster to do something of the sort. Regardless, “that’s not the way it works” is not a good enough reason to make me believe that there isn’t a way to improve the current system.</p>

89

<p>Thank you NSM for backing me up with your real-life experiences, on some of the comments I made here. Perhaps SSlacker believes me now. You were so dead on in your post 86. SSlacker overlooked the biggest difference of all. While there may be a difference between seeking/completing one’s own scholarship app compared to having one handed to you ready to be completed, there is an even FAR greater difference for the student that does neither and doesn’t even fill one out.
As others have pointed out here, not all scholarships are based specifically on need. They don’t automatically go to the poorest kid. The Original Post tells us many of the scholarships were outside scholarships, and many obtained independently, so that is what we are discussing here. Scholarships like that can have different guidelines and expectations. My S came across one that was for black students going into nursing. He didn’t qualify, so he moved on. Scholarships should go to whoever deserves them most. My S isn’t black and wasn’t going into nursing. His need didn’t enter into that independent scholarship. Remember too that some here have told of their experiences winning a scholarship by default- no other student applied! The Op seems to feel <em>scholarship gobbling</em> is unfair because the “rich and powerful” get it all. Many many posters here have now demonstrated that in reality, many scholarships are awarded to a few because often times only a few apply.</p>

<p>Does it come as a shock to some people here that I feel college educated parents may put a higher priority on their offspring going to college too? Higher education typically leads to higher earnings.</p>

90

<p>My child applied for 5 outside scholarships - all were I guess what you’d call “special interest” type deals. My husband is in law enforcement and all of the scholarships were in some way connected to that. We’ve heard back from 3 of the 5, and he received an award from all 3 so far. They WEREN’T based on need. It seems that they were all pretty much academic and community service related. I see nothing wrong with specific scholarships like this - in our case the applicant needs to be the child of someone in either law enforcement or another type of “service” occupation. </p>

<p>Is that “scholarship gobbling” if he ends up getting $ from all 5 that he applied to? I’m the first to admit that my husband actually did the reseach to find these scholarships. I “strongly encouraged” our child to complete the applications and write the necessary essays. (He took care of the great greats and the years of community service on his own…) He might have grumbled alittle about the time and work the applications took, but he put in the effort anyway. Yes, I’m sure there are students out there with more “need” than us - does that mean they are the only ones entitled to scholarships? I definitely don’t think so!</p>

91

<p>This is not related to anything in particular, but something that has been on my mind: Does socioeconomic class affect scholarship applications in that fewer high school students from poor backgrounds intend to go on a 2-year or 4-year university? Obviously if going to college is not a clear-cut goal or even a goal at all, what incentive is there to go through the entire process for money they’re not going to use? Scholarships aside, higher education of any kind is a huge investment for a family, and it may not be financially unsound for students in a tough economic situation to pursue other avenues upon graduation–joining the workforce or enlisting in the armed services, for example. Despite counselors preaching the scholarship gospel, I can see how many students could have the “college-is-for-people-better-off-than-I” or “I-need-to-support-my-family” mentality ingrained in the minds, thus forcing them pass up that is basically there for their taking.</p>

<p>Just some thoughts.</p>

92

<p>

</p>

<p>OK, SeniorSlacker, now I’m confused. Your initial post seemed to indicate that the problem was the student being greedy. But if you believe the sentence I highlighted, then your problem really is with the organizations that provide the scholarships: the scholarships should be need-based. But apparently these weren’t. There is no other answer than “that’s the way it works” - organizations can do anything they want with their own money. There is no requirement, legal or otherwise, that scholarships can only be need-based, which is what you suggest.</p>

<p>Wealthier parents can provide more opportunities for their children, from music, dance and art classes, to sports coaching and camps, to summer camps, to private schools, to private tutors in difficult subjects and the SATs, to college counselors. In our society, people can do whatever they want with their own money, even if that means providing their children with opportunities that poorer children do not have. </p>

<p>Again, I ask you: What do you suggest to change that?</p>

93

<p>“In our society, people can do whatever they want with their own money…”</p>

<p>People DO do whatever they want with their money…and since it is the adult’s (parents) money, it is the adults who do what they want with it. So just because a parent has money, it does not mean that they choose to spend it on their child’s education. The entire financial need/ scholarship structure is based on the premise that parents should or WILL spend their income/ savings on their children’s education. And that is certainly not the case. Very often parents make the financial choice of what college they can afford or are willing to pay for.</p>

<p>I live in an upper middle class+ community and a lot of parents chose to send their children to local state schools and community colleges…especially those who are footing the bill entirely since they are not eligible for any financial aid. They believe their children will get a decent education and they do not want to pay more than that towards education. Ironically, though, the students who ARE going to private schools are often the students in town who are not as well off financially and who qualify for large financial aid packages through these schools.</p>

<p>Look even at the ivy leagues with their generous financial aid for those families making up to $180-$200K. Well, in suburban New York, many students find out that their families (many with 2 incomes) are just above that cut-off. And then they find out that their parents are not going to foot the bill (close to $30 to $35K extra/year for that private school education!) And the children have no choice in the mattter of how much their parents will spend. Because payment of one’s EFC is certainly not MANDATED by those who make financial aid decisions.</p>

<p>So what’s an ambitious upper middle class student who is not backed by his parents to do?Well, besides saddling himself with loans, many will hope to gain scholarships that are merit, not need based. And that is why I feel that independent scholarships SHOULD be merit based, since it will allow the broadest base of students to be eligilble. </p>

<p>Obviously, organizations need to make those decisions for themselves, but to me it seems unfair to only offer scholarships to the most needy student when they will (hopefully) already be getting financial aid through their colleges. That way each student is judged by their own accomplishments and not their parent’s income.</p>

94

<p>

</p>

<p>Most colleges do not meet full need, however, so even with financial aid to needy students from the colleges, an aid gap will still exist. My son’s college gaps; it doesn’t meet full need. You’d have the neediest students getting some aid from a college but not enough to actually attend without additional aid AND be locked out of outside scholarships needed to close the gap in aid.</p>

95

<p>Yes, I am aware of the “gap”. And the “gap” exists for those whose parents won’t pay for their child’s education no matter what the EFC is calculated as. I am not saying that students getting financial aid and who need additional money shouldn’t apply and receive it. I am saying that they are not the only ones who might need aid. I just think that these outside (additional) scholarships should be based on merit and they should not use the parent’s EFC as the criteria. And in some cases, where need is met by the colleges, these additional funds come off the grant money that a school was originally going to give.</p>

96

<p>The financial aid system is filled with lots of holes. If you qualify for financial need, there are avenues where you can get scholarships, grants, loans, help. When you get into the area of merit scholarships, need can be a non factor, a tipping point, or a huge part of the requirement to be in the running. Some merit awards are merit within need which means you cannot be considered without qualifying for need. </p>

<p>However, yes, there are awards that are purely merit based. There are also “scholarships” that are really discounts that some schools use to attract those students whose families can afford most or even all of the cost for college, but will be more likely to be attracted to a school that offers this discount. Many colleges do use this strategy because it is a good use of scholarship money to get, say 100 kids who will be paying 80-90% of the cost rather than getting 10-20 kids that need a full ride, all other things equal. </p>

<p>However, the local scholarships I have seen have underlying missions that are related to the organization providing the money, and those kids who best fit their profiles tend to be the ones who will get the money. I know the scholarship my son got is very narrow in focus, and I think my son was one of very few if any other applicants for it. It is a pain in the neck to apply for many of these awards, and you can apply to hundreds of them with no hits. My son only got the one hit out of all of his apps. </p>

<p>The colleges that can afford to do so give money only to those who demonstrate need, but many colleges have found that things go better for them if they manage their enrollment by giving scholarships for merit and special attributes they most want.</p>

97

<p>When D applied for college we knew we were not getting any financial aid. Therefore, so as not to mislead D, we told her that in order to go to a pricier private school she would need to be awarded some merit aid in order for school to be affordable to us. Of course that limited her list…no ivies or private schools that did not have merit aid. (And we told her she needed to work on getting other scholarships on her own.) We hoped for a minimum figure of $10K per year from the schools she applied to. D did get that and more at all the schools she applied to. Except, of course, the school she wanted most.</p>

<p>It turned out that the “merit” award she was given was need based and that came as a surprise to the program director who had awarded it to her. It had always been a pure merit aid award in prior years. Luckily he fought for D to get a talent award instead, and was able to get approval on that as a true merit scholarship. But there was a lot of nail biting before he was able to get it approved.</p>

<p>We were very lucky that most of the local scholarships D was awarded including the NYS Lottery Leaders of Tomorrow were merit based only. And I do think that it is the best way to award outside scholarships. Yes, many of the criteria for these awards are narrow, based on the special interest of the particular group awarding it. However, if a child fits their criteria and has gone through the effort of applying, I don’t think what their parent’s EFC should be an additional factor.</p>

98

<p>

</p>

<p>The leaders of tomorrow scholarship is not a merit based only scholarship. Each school gets to nominate 2 candidates with the criteria that they will be attending a NYS school.</p>

<p>In our school each GC nominates a student and writes a recommendation for the nominee. The principal selected the 2 students who would be the candidate from out school. I nominated and wrote the recommendation for the winner from my school. She is not the top student in my school (she was not even the highest ranked student on my caseload), but she did have other qualities that made her a standout, which is the reason I recommended her. She wote an excellent essay and was ultimately chosen by the NYS Lottery over the other student who had a higher gpa.</p>

99

<p>

</p>

<p>If a scholarship sponsor wants to set need as a criterion, the sponsor does, just as other criteria are set. Are you going to complain because the Tall Club of DC offers a scholarship that requires the receiving student be tall? How about those scholarships that go to children of police officers? My meritorious kid can’t apply for those becuse he doesn’t have a parent who is a police officer. </p>

<p>Whether you think a parent’s EFC shouldn’t be a factor is immaterial, because you don’t set the rules, and if you’re going to complain about need being a factor, why not complain about all the other criteria that knock some kids out of the running?</p>

100

<p>“Obviously, organizations need to make those decisions for themselves, but to me it seems unfair to only offer scholarships to the most needy student when they will (hopefully) already be getting financial aid through their colleges. That way each student is judged by their own accomplishments and not their parent’s income.”</p>

<p>Most needy students aren’t getting much if any financial aid because most coleges in the country can’t meet the full demonstrated need of their students. Most very needy students lack the academic background to have any chance at the overwhelming majority of the few colleges that meet 100% of demonstrated need: That’s because most of those colleges are places like Harvard and Yale, some of the most difficult ones in the country to gain admission to. The only college that’s not ultra competitive to gain entrance to that I’m aware of that also meets full financial need is Berea, which only serves low income students. However, it’s still not easy to gain admission to Berea, and obviously it can’t serve all very needy students.</p>

<p>As for their merits, more affluent students are likely to have higher SAT scores and weighted gpas because their schools usually are much better than the schools that low income students attend. Low income students’ schools are less likely to have lots of APs, which means they don’t have the chance to get as high weighted gpas as do students in stronger school systems.</p>

<p>Organizations and individuals who are using their money to sponsor scholarships can use any criteria that they choose.</p>