HYP Admit: Local Scholarship Shutout Fair?

Parents Forum
1

<p>Let me know what you think about this.</p>

<p>I will be attending one of the big three Ivy schools this fall after graduating from a school where virtually no one attends an Ivy. My parents' income is about $93,000 with both of them working full-time and we do not have a lot of assets. My parents will be paying $10,000 a year (mainly from PLUS loans) for me to attend my college and I will have to come up with another $3500 from summer and work-study jobs. I will also need to purchase a computer this summer.</p>

<p>A friend of my Dad's who is on the scholarship committee for the service club they both belong to mentioned casually a couple weeks ago who was selected to receive the club's scholarships (not me). The friend then said that the high school guidance counselors had told the committee that I did not "need" any money since I was attending an Ivy college with a big endowment. (Need was not a criteria for this scholarship and one of the two classmates who received the scholarship comes from a much higher-income family than I do.) As other local scholarships have been announced, I have been almost completely shut out.</p>

<p>My parents are mad and want to say something to the guidance counselors (who do not know our income and never saw my financial aid award letter). But will that just look like I am a sore loser? And it won't change anything. But was this kind of "advising" of committees by the guidance counselors appropriate?</p>

2

<p>I don't think your parents should say anything to the GCs because it's too late, and yes, they would seem like sore losers and your dad's friend would get in trouble with the scholarship committee for sharing with you the information from the GC and the committee's deliberations.</p>

<p>If you truly need money, this was something for your parents to have shared before with the GCs, who are in a position to advocate for students with scholarship committees.</p>

<p>I have served on scholarship committees, and given what you've posted about your income, I would bet that there were other applicants more needy than you. This may include the students who got the scholarship that you didn't. Their families may have, for instance, other kids who are in college or their family income may not be as high as you think. They also may be getting far less than you're getting from the colleges where they applied or they may have financial difficulties (such as caring for other relatives) that you're unaware of.</p>

<p>Expecting to pay $13,500 a year for a Harvard education is an incredible bargain as most college costing as much as Harvard would have expected a higher contribution from your family.</p>

<p>There's a good chance that there are students whose income is lower and who are expected to pay more to attend state universities, which typically aren't able to meet 100% of students' financial need. Such schools also usually require students to take out far more in loans than would a place like Harvard.</p>

3

<p>It is not appropriate and your parents should make representations to the scholarship committee. It is too late for you to get scholarships, but these would have reduced the amount of loans that your parents have to take out or the need for you to earn $3500.
The GCs may be under the impression that a student admitted to a college with a large endowment has nothing to worry about financially, but this is pure guesswork on their part. Your parents' ability to point out how much the lack of scholarship for you cost them financially will open their eyes.</p>

<p>Meanwhile, can your parents negotiate over the amount of financial aid you're getting? $13,500 per year is above the 10% announced by H.</p>

<p>EDIT: X-posted with NSM. I totally disagree with NSM. The GCs engaged in pure guesswork about how much the student would be getting from HYP. The OP mentions another student whose parents earn more but got a scholarship. What gives?
As well, the scholarship is not need-based. So either the scholarship should go to the one who deserves it more on merit or the GCs should make a real effort to find out the true economic circumstances of each student.</p>

<p>As for H being a bargain at $13,000, it is a totally gratuitous addition to this discussion. I am disappointed that NSM brought it up. And I say this as someone who pays full fare.</p>

4

<p>1) No, it's probably not fair.</p>

<p>2) Get used to it. Graduates of the three schools you mention deal with resentment as a part of their every day life. Most learn to simply say "I went to college in Boston" or "a school in Connecticut" in many social and even work settings.</p>

5

<p>I think it was totally inappropriate of the GC to say anything. I would talk to the GC to confirm (what a friend said is hearsay and may have been taken out of context). If the GC is in fact providing "opinions" on need, I would probably discuss it with the principal.</p>

6

<p>If contacted by scholarship committees, it's appropriate for GCs to let the committees know which students appear to be high need. Saying a student will be attending Harvard, which indeed does have a high endowment and is one of the most generous colleges in the country when it comes to giving need-based financial aid, doesn't seem a privacy violation to me, and it seems perfectly fine info to pass along.</p>

<p>The problem in all of this is that the family friend should not have divulged the inside information about how the scholarship committee made up its mind.</p>

<p>Whether the decision was made because the committee wanted to give to a student who would be attending one of their alma maters or whether the committee wanted to give to a student who was a close friend of a committee member, unless what it was doing was illegal, the committee had the right to choose whomever it wanted.</p>

<p>One last thing: As a person who has run scholarship committees, I would have been ticked off to find out that a member of the committee was a friend of one of the applicants. I would have expected the person to have stepped off the committee. This is a matter of my personal ethics, but since private scholarship committees can do whatever they want to, that may not have been the policy of the committee in question.</p>

<p>Given the leaked info, though, I imagine that it will become the policy of that committee.</p>

<p>I also suspect that the family friend may have passed along to the student a tactful reason for why the student didn't get the scholarship. That may not have been the reason at all. Maybe the committee liked the other students better. The family friend may not have felt comfortable telling your family that especially if the friend had indicated that he could hook you up with the scholarship.</p>

7

<p>Having to deal with resentment is not the same thing as being at the receiving end of an unfair decision with real financial circumstances.</p>

<p>And just because HYP is a bargain at $13,000 per year does not mean one should accept an unfair decision.</p>

8

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<p>Geez!!!!</p>

<p>Another thing: How does the GC know how much the parents make? I am certain that our GCs did not know how much income my H and I have. So the GCs merely guessed that HYP would be generous. And made a decision on that guess, rather than on actual facts regarding the family or knowledge about the financial offer. Pretty unprofessional, in my opinion.</p>

9

<p>Typically, even when local, private scholarships are merit based, committees will choose students who appear to have need even if those students aren't quite as good as are more affluent appearing applicants.</p>

<p>In many cases, too, the committee members have donated or helped raise the money, and they'd prefer that the scholarship go to someone who not only qualifies for the scholarship, but also needs the money.</p>

<p>All are good reasons not to wear designer attire and arrive in an expensive car for one's scholarship interview.</p>

<p>Not saying the applicant did those things, but I am remembering how ticked off a national organization got when one of their scholarship/internship recipients ended up having a dad who was a top exec of a major company who gave his son a new Mustang after the son got the scholarship. Meanwhile, many of the people who had donated and raised scholarship money had come from low income backgrounds and were still paying off college loans. To boot, it ended up that the student was not interested in the field, and felt he was doing the organization a favor to do the paid internship that came with the scholarship.</p>

10

<p>I agree with interested dad that the resentment factor is big. My son will also be attending an Ivy in the fall, and his school has never had anyone get accepted to an Ivy. Just like you, hey ya, he was shut out of many scholarships I think he would have otherwise gotten. For whatever reason, people think you're rich if your child goes to an Ivy. All it really means is that the kid has worked their butt off!!! My son doesn't even want people to talk to him about college in front of other kids. They have been pretty snotty. Even one of the teachers has been hateful. She told my son if he couldn't get 100 on all his test at high school he better prepare to have to buckle down and do better. He got a 97 for goodness sakes. It's the end of his senior year, and he's just ready for it to be over.</p>

11

<p>What I've noticed is that local scholarship committees also often favor students who are going to college locally. One reason is that the committees assume that such students are more likely to return to or stay in their hometowns. Students heading off to top colleges that are outside of the area often are viewed by committees as being unlikely to return home to live permanently.</p>

<p>Scholarship committees also tend to like students who remind them of themselves, and in most areas, the scholarship committee members didn't attend Ivies. I suppose that places like Boston are exceptions to this, but in Boston, Harvard also would be a hometown college.</p>

<p>From what the OP has written, it doesn't seem that the GC provided any info about the parents' income. Instead, the GC passed along info about Harvard's financial aid policies, which indeed are far more generous than virtually any other college's in the country.</p>

12

<p>"The problem in all of this is that the family friend should not have divulged the inside information about how the scholarship committee made up its mind."</p>

<p>Northstarmom, the problem is this guidance counselor should not have speculated on my family's "need" without any firsthand knowledge of the issue, and should not have introduced need into the discussion since it was not a criteria in the first place. If this all goes on behind closed doors, how do committee members figure out the guidance counselor doesn't know what he is talking about?</p>

<p>This friend/acquaintance stopped by my Dad's workplace to congratulate him on where I was going to school. He did not know what I was doing next year until the guidance counselor told the committee (as the reason I had no "need.") My application was due well before April 1 when admittance decisions came out so it was not on my application. My Dad was not aware this guy was on the scholarship committee until he brought it up. (Obviously this guy is not a close friend.) And if everyone who knows a kid applying for a scholarship is disqualified from serving on a scholarship committee in a small town, there would be no one on a scholarship committee.</p>

13

<p>It's unfair and I would have the parents talk to the principal.</p>

<p>My dad was in the military. He was an officer. I had a sibling who was at best an average student. Senior year, looking for an "easy' course, my sibling took art--and excelled. This was the FIRST time EVER my sib was the best at ANYTHING. </p>

<p>An award was given for the best student in each subject, including art. The prize was something like $50--back in the sixties. My sib didn't win and was horribly disappointed. So, my dad, went to see the art teacher and asked why, since based on what the art teacher had said, he thought his kid was the most talented artist. </p>

<p>Answer? The other kid's father was a NCO (non-commissioned officer.) The art teacher decided he "needed" the $50 more than an officer's kid. Need wasn't part of the reason for the award. </p>

<p>My dad was so angry--it was senior year and it would have been the first time EVER my sib had received an award K-12. But at least he told my sib the reason why. (The other kid won lots of awards for other things, BTW.) </p>

<p>I'd go in and have a little chat with the principal. The GC was WAY out of line.</p>

14

<p>"The friend then said that the high school guidance counselors had told the committee that I did not "need" any money since I was attending an Ivy college with a big endowment. "</p>

<p>No indication that the GC made any statement about your family income.</p>

<p>Also the info about what your GC said is third hand. For all we know, the family friend didn't hear the info personally, but it was passed along to some other committee member who may have called the GC to get additional info.</p>

<p>My advice is to let it go. Even if your GC had said nothing, you still may not have gotten the scholarship even if on paper you appeared to be the best applicant. Such decisions always are quirky.</p>

<p>Look for other scholarships to apply for. As a future Harvard student, you have to have the background and writing ability to have a shot at national scholarships offered through places like fastweb, scholarships that most students have no chance at.</p>

<p>Saying this, incidentally, as a Harvard alum who had loans, need-based scholarships there.</p>

<p>I've been turned down for and have seen my own sons be turned down for some scholarships and opps that I was sure we were best qualified for. I know that one never is guaranteed a scholarship, admission, internship, etc., no matter how qualified one is, so I have never ever thought of going to complain about being passed over even when I thought that I thoroughly deserved an opportunity that wasn't absolutely guaranteed. An example of an opportunity that is guaranteed based on certain criteria is qualifying for National Merit semifinalist or commended. If you meet the criteria, you get the honor regardless of need or other factors. Otherwise, selection always has some arbitrary component to it.</p>

15

<p>NSM:</p>

<p>
[quote]
Typically, even when local, private scholarships are merit based, committees will choose students who appear to have need even if those students aren't quite as good as are more affluent appearing applicants.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>The operative word is appear. </p>

<p>If the committee prefers to give scholarships to students who will attend local colleges, let it state that openly. There's nothing wrong in stating upfront that "Preference will be given to..."
I stand by my characterization of the GC and the scholarship committee. Totally unprofessional and unfair.</p>

<p>My advice is to NOT let it go. Not for this student's sake but for others. The committee and the GCs need to rethink their policies and their modus operandi.</p>

16

<p>"If this all goes on behind closed doors, how do committee members figure out the guidance counselor doesn't know what he is talking about?"</p>

<p>Before you send your parents to rip the GC, remember this is the same GC whom Harvard probably called and had a long conversation with before deciding to admit you. It's very unlikely that Harvard would have admitted you if your GC hadn't said glowing things about you. For instance, a GC in my town told me that the Harvard admissions officer talked with her 45 minutes, asking lots of detailed questions about a student who had applied who eventually was admitted. </p>

<p>So, again, my advice is to let go of your anger about the scholarship, which you never were guaranteed to get. </p>

<p>If money is a concern, have a courteous chat with your GC letting her know of your financial concerns, and asking your GC for advice on scholarship options. </p>

<p>I also hope you've taken the chance to put in writing your gratitude to your GC for the assistance in your getting good college acceptances.</p>

<p>I've noticed that too many people are quick to complain, but not quick at all to offer thanks and appreciation after others have assisted their getting fine opportunities.</p>

17

<p>"The operative word is appear. </p>

<p>If the committee prefers to give scholarships to students who will attend local colleges, let it state that openly. There's nothing wrong in stating upfront that "Preference will be given to..."
I stand by my characterization of the GC and the scholarship committee. Totally unprofessional and unfair.</p>

<p>My advice is to NOT let it go. Not for this student's sake but for others. The committee and the GCs need to rethink their policies and their modus operandi."</p>

<p>As I stated, as long as what it's doing is legal, the committee can do whatever it wants. For instance, typically local scholarship committee members favor students who'll go to college locally. They don't have to include that info in their scholarship criteria.</p>

<p>They also may favor students from certain high schools, neighborhoods or with certain ECs, or who come from single parent homes or have any of a million other factors. </p>

<p>This is indeed the way the world works, including when one applies for jobs. Factors that weren't stated in the job posting may cause one to not get a position that you're very qualified for to get a position that others were more qualified for.</p>

<p>Consequently, nothing is guaranteed. Stewing about the unfairness of this kind of quirkiness just keeps one from moving on to other opportunities.</p>

18

<p>NSM:</p>

<p>How do you know that the student did not thank the GC already???? How do you know that Harvard called the GC???</p>

<p>Sheer speculation on your part. </p>

<p>No one said what the committee did is illegal. I wonder about your reasoning throughout this thread.</p>

<p>I have been on scholarship committees, too. And we have tried to stick by the guidelines and act on what we knew for sure--not guesswork.</p>

<p>As I said, it's a good idea for the student or his/her parents to talk to the GC (s). Not for the student's sake but for the sake of other students whose financial needs the GCs may be inclined to guess rather than know for sure. </p>

<p>As for me, I guess that the reason for a student who was admitted to HYP to be shut out of so many merit-based scholarships is not coincidence; very possibly the GCs had a hand in this outcome. And that is sad.</p>

19

<p>I think when you're dealing with small town scholarships, there are a lot of things that come into consideration, maybe even subconsciously. Sometimes the valedictorian doesn't get many scholarships because all the committees think the 'others' will give theirs to the valedictorian, so they give theirs to someone else. Thus, the valedictorian gets very little. I think it is OFTEN the case that organizations prefer people they know or who are affiliated with the organization in question. I've also served on scholarship committees, and our decision often came down to two kids, and we picked one based on pretty random factors. While most large, national scholarships specifically exclude employees or family of the 'gifting' organizations, small scholarships often blatantly favor those affiliated with the organization.</p>

<p>As for the OP, I don't think it does any harm to inquire as to what is being said, with the intent to educate the GC's that maybe they don't know as much as they think they do. Then, let it go.</p>

20

<p>How do you know that the student did not thank the GC already???? How do you know that Harvard called the GC???</p>

<p>Sheer speculation on your part. "</p>

<p>That's why if you read my post, you'll notice that I said Harvard "probably" called the GC. At the very least, though, we know the GC had to send Harvard a report on the student. </p>

<p>"No one said what the committee did is illegal. I wonder about your reasoning throughout this thread."</p>

<p>I agree that no one (including me) said that the committee did anything illegal. I've said that illegal activities by a scholarship committee would be the only reason for a person to have a case for getting a scholarship that they weren't awarded.</p>

<p>"As I said, it's a good idea for the student or his/her parents to talk to the GC (s). Not for the student's sake but for the sake of other students whose financial needs the GCs may be inclined to guess rather than know for sure. "</p>

<p>As I keep posting, the OP has never said that the GC speculated about his family's finances. The third or fourth hand info is that the GC told the scholarship committee true info about Harvard's scholarship policies.</p>

<p>"As for me, I guess that the reason for a student who was admitted to HYP to be shut out of so many merit-based scholarships is not coincidence; very possibly the GCs had a hand in this outcome. And that is sad."</p>

<p>The GC probably had a hand, too, in the student's getting into HYP while some other students did not get into HPY or their dream schools.</p>

<p>This is not sad, it's reality.</p>

<p>The GC's job is to help all students, which means that sometimes the GC may be asked by a college or scholarship committee, "Which of these three students do you feel we should select, and why do you think so?" It's the GC's job to give some kind of answer.</p>

<p>I was in that position when I advised a college organization that was a pipeline to professional internships. Often, prospective employers would be willing to take only one student, and would ask for my advice. Just because a student was the very best student at the organization didn't mean that student would be the best pick for the organization, which may have wanted, for instance, a student who was likely to want to live in their region after graduation.</p>

<p>It also may be that all of the local scholarship committees in the student's small town prefer to not give to students going away to top colleges like Harvard. This could be because the committee members may prefer to give to students who remind them more of themselves, who probably didn't go to a school like HPY.</p>

<p>Another possibility is that the traits -- confidence, creativeness, articulateness -- that may have impressed HPY may have come across to committee members in a small town as being egocentric. I'm not saying the OP is egocentric. I do know, however, that the traits that helped me fit in at Harvard often have people from other backgrounds misjudging me as being a show off, too talkative or egocentric.</p>