I said that as well in the post to which you responded. The cheaper school comment relates to the initial thrust of the thread about whether it was worth it to go to a higher ranked school with little to no FA/or merit vs a lower ranked school with merit. That topic was well covered upthread as to legal job opportunities. I was just giving the OP something else to consider for her D if she had not yet.
You speak repeatedly of “doors remain open after a legal stint” which just isn’t my experience. As often as not, years into a career a JD is as much as a hindrance as a help.
I guess just a different set of experiences.
My post about desisting from debating should not have been interpreted as compliance is optional. I have put the thread on slow mode temporarily to allow other users to participate.
This^^^
I don’t think you can convince most people. I’ve heard it so many times from smart kids and their families… they don’t see themselves in “business” because they don’t know what that is really. Law and medicine are definitive paths for “smart people that will make a lot of money”, especially the “I don’t like math or CS” (which is unfortunately dominated by really bright females). No matter how many sites or discussions you see about law school not being worth it, most kids won’t believe you. Heck I know lawyer parents that are strongly encouraging their children to go to law school (at full pay) because they want the prestige (and they ALSO don’t know what’s out there for the non Mathy person).
If you pay attention to 2020 and 2021 LSAT increases and law school applications you will be shocked. Applications and LSAT scores are through the roof. There will be glut of new lawyers in 3 years.
Personally I work with a incredibly decreasing group of lawyers in my corporate world. They’ve shrunk down the work to basic contract negotiation with clients and anything more complicated goes to specialized “outside counsel” (the contract work is not very complicated). To be honest if they had better technology in our legal area it would even have less lawyers. They are not interested in more automation to take their jobs, so avoid! But they are incredibly busy because they are understaffed and underautimated and TBH aren’t in a huge hurry to even hire paralegals who will do their work for them.
Hopefully this thread stays open since it’s a very interesting discussion. People are discussing different aspects and I don’t find it debaty or off putting.
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Yes, the jobs will contract with AI over the next ten years. The ABA will not protect lawyers like the AMA protects doctors. They have already allowed outsourcing of doc review abroad, which has devastated graduates from less prestigious law schools. The other issue is the structure of the economy, where most people in most parts of this country will not pay $500 (the bare minimum) for a DUI defense or a simple last will and testament. The consumer base for legal services used to be larger, now they have legal zoom and more pro se guides than they could ever read.
The last President and the “law fare” under his tenure led a lot of people to apply to law schools, not realizing those DOJ/non profit jobs are some of the most competitive. The glut of lawyers will continue, but at least the quality will improve. When off the record, law professors say the quality of student, both in terms of critical thinking and writing and oral expression, has declined precipitously from the 90s when a JD was the generic smart persons degree. Before this bump, applications from Ivy League undergrads bottomed out because they had way more attractive options.
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Kids don’t read (enough) and their parents don’t connect the dots.
I hear all the time “Corporate HR is boring and for stupid people”. Talent issues are FASCINATING- WFH- what does it mean? how to keep women (especially mothers) in the workforce during the Great Resignation going on right now, what is a living wage and how do you get there, now that the bloom is off the rose in terms of transferring production of essential goods to China (since much of that stuff is sitting on a ship in the Pacific, where it might sit for another three months) how do we as a country gear back up our manufacturing capabilities, how do you retrain displaced restaurant workers to be competent in highly automated and computer generated processes, where is the labor force to handle the millions of baby-boomers who are going to have dementia, parkinsons, mobility issues. How do you provide appropriate intervention to get HS graduates (who might have been C students in algebra) to be capable Pharm Assistants who won’t kill somebody because they don’t know that the decimal point will either kill you or cure you on a dosage label. Do you get involved when a group of employees complain that a manager has a racist (or perceived to be racist) post on his/her personal social media account and if so- how?
Good degrees for careers that deal with these issues? Undergrad in Psych. Undergrad in History. Undergrad in Poli Sci. Eventually a Master’s in Public Policy, or an MBA, or Organizational Psych, or no Master’s at all.
But yes- people I know in real life-- Doctor, Lawyer, Computer Scientist. Engineer as a fallback.
There are HUNDREDS of great careers that are not those things!
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This. Most aspiring law students now want to do good and may not “care about the money” (especially if mom and dad are paying) and want to help the underserved. Unfortunately, they may get a dose of reality once they graduate to a 60k a year job that their friends in undergrad had long since blown by. Rapid they are not rich and took big loans.
The model is bad… law school is too expensive and the schools should be held to some employment standards. But it’s buyer beware, and a new uninformed/poorly read person is graduating from undergrad every year.
I swear, if I hear “I didn’t like blood so med school was out, so going to law school” one more time, I’ll scream. Like those are the only 2 things to do. I just think some kids really want to keep studying, don’t know the fields out there, and want to have defined “automatic” prestigious roles. I know lots of lawyers that can’t go 5 minutes in a conversation with someone new, without telling them they are a lawyer. The message is “instant prestige”. Whereas I know high level executives in corporate (“big shots”) that don’t have an easy explanation of what they do, and don’t feel the need to brag because it requires more effort. (Anecdotal)
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Suzy- agree with you. The person who runs Supply Chain or Logistics at Pfizer; the person who leads the finance team at J&J; the person who runs all facilities for Humana. There’s a team of people who figured out the ad campaign for Mother’s Against Drunk Driving which eventually led to legislation across the country to make the roads safer. These are complicated leadership roles that have a huge impact on society but are hard to describe and even harder to appreciate. And they don’t require a law degree OR an MD!
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This is why I say law school can make sense if nearly free even if parents are footing the bill. There is no reason to spend six figures in tuition, living expenses, and lost wages to take the 60k job (if you get one, a lot of non-big law pays 40-50k, some go down to 30k salary).
There are dozens of anti-law school blogs (some written by professors), forums, and advocacy groups. A handful of law schools closed because of their efforts due to bar passage rates and unemployment being publicized, but not nearly enough. Frankly, I don’t see it ever happening until federal loans for law school end and the schools have to cover any failures to repay private loans.
Funny about med school, out of my class maybe half a dozen could realistically have obtained an MD. Law school students don’t have the chops for STEM, except for a handful going into hard IP. That corporate big shot you mention bosses the lawyers around all weekend, he or she doesn’t have a chip on their should or much to prove once at the C-suite level. He or she will get stock options, IPO access, and co-investments most big law partners will never access sadly.
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This thread is really fascinating - so much interesting info, from so many angles.
I am wondering whether some of the analysis re: the current legal field (and it’s potential downsides) also applies to business?
We’ve been talking about the negative aspects of the law (and it makes all makes sense!). I can also see a further contraction of opportunities w/expanding automation, the upcoming rise of limited license professionals, the growing acceptance of online resources for pro se, etc.
But doesn’t that same spectrum of ‘distressingly limited opportunties for many and some great opportunities for others (often those from highly ranked schools)’ apply to business as well?
I know a number of young, successful folks in business w/undergrad degrees (e.g., $300k+ a year in pharma marketing). But I also know there are many people with heavy undergrad debt in overworked/underpaid positions such as assistant retail manager or low-level supervisor in an big company - and things don’t look promising for upward mobility. I also know a few MBAs in less-than-fulfilling positions.
One bonus of legal I can see (that might not apply to biz?) is that I left the marketplace for 10 years and was able to jump back in - I had that license and it allowed me to return quickly to interesting work. The law degree also allowed me to jump in the deep end right out of school into some high-level stuff (granted - a while ago!). There was an understanding that w/the degree I could learn it. Seems like an advantage…?
Just trying to give a balanced picture to my D. I’d hate to see her end up in biz and be stuck in a low-level job for years on end (just as I wouldn’t want the same if she got a J.D.!). Note: I know a lot depends on the person and their ambition, self-management, people skills, etc. Just wondering…
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One noteworthy difference between law school & MBA programs is that one requires three years of study while the other is just two years. The extra year of tuition & of lost income can result in a more undesirable financial situation when re-entering the work force. Furthermore, law school requires expenses for a bar exam & bar exam prep which often extends the period of lost income for many recent law school graduates.
Once a member of a state bar, annual bar dues and required continuing education credits are costs not required of MBA holders.
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I hear you, Publisher. Two years vs. three for a grad degree is something to consider. In the big scheme of things, though, I wouldn’t necessarily see these as make-or-break - if one career offered a lot more challenge/reward/engagement. The days are long in a work career - it’s important to find something fulfilling, even if there are some attendant expenses.
In my experience, annual fees are usually about $200 and CLE can be obtained pretty cheaply via online, for the most part.
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While merit scholarships to law schools are available, there is a substantial barrier to entering “big law” (the highest paying major law firms) for graduates of law schools outside of the top 13 law schools.
One who graduates a top 13 law school ranked in the middle of the class has a realistic shot at being offered a position at a major firm which offers a first year salary of $205,000 plus bonus.
Graduates of the remaining Tier One (top 50) law schools probably need to graduate in the top 25% to top 20% in order to have a realistic chance at landing a position as an associate at a major law firm.
There are about 200 ABA accredited law schools in the US.
For those who do not want to pursue a career in a major law firm, a full tuition scholarship at a law school located in the geographic area where that students intends to practice can be a reasonable choice.
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While true, the mba is not necessary. If you have a halfway decent undergrad major, an MBA will not be necessary for a lucrative business career whereas you have to get a JD to enter law.
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While this is true about CLEs, it is insulting. You spent three years on a JD without any income. Then they demand more of your time and money. Your MBA peers or BBA peers don’t deal with such nonsense
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Almost all law school grads who end up getting a job in big law do so via the on campus interview (OCI) process, which takes place after first year (which is why first year grades are so important). At law schools outside the top 30 or so, big firms who participate in OCI typically have stringent requirements for you to even qualify for a screening interview - usually top 10% or law review. Maybe top 20%. That means that 80-90% of the class won’t even qualify for a screening interview. If you can’t get into a top law school (and most can’t), gunning for big law is a sucker’s bet. It might work out for a few, but the vast majority end up on the outside looking in.
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Crediting this. That 14-30 range school, anywhere from a 20% to almost half of a class will enter big law. What is defined as big law is variable. Be warned, the second the market tanks and firms cut down hiring, those percentages dry up before the lower T13s lose anything like substantial hiring representation. Your spot as a non T13 big law prospect is marginal
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Just to add an anecdote: I am a lawyer married to a lawyer and we have not encouraged our children to follow in our footsteps.
I had great stats going into law school and took great merit money to go to a less prestigious law school in the area I wanted to ultimately live and work. I graduated in the midst of a recession at the top of my class and got a job with one if the largest firms in a mid-size city (not Big Law, but good money for the area).
Getting into and paying for law school and getting a job with good pay — that was all the easy part.
What came after wasn’t. Even outside Big Law, the large law firm billable hours system is a grind and doesn’t reward efficiency. It particularly sucks for two lawyers married to each other who want to raise kids.
Ultimately, my spouse went in-house (great move, but could’ve had even better opportunities and work getting there via the business route). I retired from the law when our youngest was in preschool. After more than three years of not actively practicing, I would have to take the bar exam again to activate my license — not that easy to just jump back in if I were so inclined.
I will say in retrospect I am very glad I opted to avoid debt and passed on the prestigious law school (which would have required substantial loans). That would have shackled me to a high-paying big firm career to get that debt paid off and achieve financial security. I appreciate that I had the freedom to leave the profession; friends with six-figure student loans did not.
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@CMA22 wrote: “After more than 3 years of not actively practising, I would have to take the bar exam again to activate my license…”
Assuming the same jurisdiction in which you are or were barred, may I ask to which jurisdiction you are referring ? (PM reply would be fine since it is a bit off-topic & for confidentiality.)