I was wondering the same thing. I’ve been a lawyer for almost 30 years and have never heard of such a thing (unless you want to practice in a new jurisdiction that doesn’t offer reciprocity).
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You can query big law partners at any firm and most have similar sentiments, they will not encourage their children to pursue a career in the profession. With doctors it is the exact opposite. The biggest rainmakers at the firms I belonged to had their children obtain an MBA or study STEM at the undergraduate level. When one nonequity partner said his son was going to a T13 school someone responded, “So you couldn’t talk him out of it?” It was not deadpan humor, it was fully sincere.
Yes, getting into law school and obtaining a job offer are very easy compared to building a sustainable long-term career in law. When applicants will not continue studying for the LSAT to get the best school and scholarship they are capable of attaining it is clear they are unlikely to last long in the profession. They don’t have the drive.
Billable hours, to any prospective law students reading this, is how the profession is structured except for ambulance chasing contingency cases. You cannot escape the reality that you are selling your time and your associates’ (if you are a partner). It is very difficult to scale this, unlike a hedge fund manager or C-suite executive selling a tangible product. Life is too short to literally sell your time if you have other options.
Good on you for avoiding debt. Some people do not fully escape until their mid to late 30s after having Manhattan roommates and living very frugally. Your peers started their careers at age 22, you did at 25 at the earliest, more likely late 20s or early 30s.
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Several states make reactivating a license difficult. Even when moving and there is reciprocity, law is not a geographically mobile profession. Your friends in finance can move from NYC to Chicago or LA for that buyside job or even work from home now to be closer to their hometowns, whereas you have to go through regulatory hoops; you likely will not have portable clients, you have to build a brand new reputation, and you are almost starting over your career. If there was any confusion earlier in the thread about lawyer-banker relationships, banks demanded their lawyers return to their big law offices despite COVID. The reverse is impossible to envision occurring in this universe.
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tomtownsend - I have to say I don’t find CLEs to be that much trouble (or irritating). I know many, many professions which require continuing ed (CPAs, engineers, healthcare).
I also don’t see the chance to get into ‘big law’ (and the stats that show the likelihood of that, based on school) to be a be-all/end-all. There are rewarding jobs elsewhere - in government (state, federal, local), non-profits, inhouse. I know there are qualifiers to all those and they don’t always pay huge amounts of money. But, I will say that when I studied for the bar at a big law firm w/a friend on Saturday mornings (years ago) - a name partner in the firm had gotten there before us (8 a.m.) and was there after we left (5 p.m.). That’s not a lifestyle I would have any desire to strive for…
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Of course we want our civil engineers to be up to date on the latest techniques and safety measures. The law just isn’t that complicated and what is learned in CLEs is usually useless to clients. If it were up to me all law schools would be abolished and we’d return to the apprentice system. There was less malpractice before we had 200 law schools and anyone with an associates could go to one of Cooley’s multiple franchise campuses (imagine if the AMA permitted such a farce of intake methods). The only people benefitting from law school are professors and administrators, none of whom could command their salaries at a firm.
I use big law percentage as a proxy for a school’s ability to launch your legal career. Without big law, getting desirable in-house jobs is nearly impossible now. Government (federal and state, increasingly non-rural DAs) is more competitive than ever, with many being former big law litigators.
Yes, being an equity partner is a horrible lifestyle. It is like winning a pie eating competition and you find out the surprise prize is more pie. You don’t get that lengthy summer vacation the PE boys get or that payout in stock options. It isn’t worth it.
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Fundamental restructuring. I didn’t invent this- it’s a thing. Tom is absolutely correct- the difficulty in getting jobs in government, non-profits, etc. without legal experience (which means a job at a law firm) cannot be overstated. That’s what a restructuring of an industry means-the old patterns (get a job in a medium sized city at a medium sized law firm with an “at the median” GPA from an OK law school and have a good life) get broken and reconstituted into something else.
There really are law graduates earning 45K per year- NOT because they serve the indigent at a prestigious but not lucrative firm; but because they are eking out a living doing doc review. Heck, Public Defenders make more than that and they get health care, retirement, and paid vacation time!
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You seem to have an axe to grind with the legal profession (look at this poster’s CC history). Hopefully anyone reading this thread and considering law school does their homework to determine if it’s worth it for them and not take this poster’s opinion as gospel. It’s one person’s opinion. I don’t think it’s reality. I’d support my DD going into the legal profession. She just thinks what I do is boring. I enjoy it. I have enjoyed many lovely vacations and never missed my kid’s events. It’s been far from not worth it. My colleagues would all agree. There are many options outside of big law, many very nicely paid too.
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I have no axe to grind. I’m not a lawyer. I seem to interview dozens of lawyers every year for corporate jobs that do not involve the law-- some are lawyers who practiced and wanted a pivot, some never got that first legal job and are looking to launch.
Of course there are tens of thousands of happy and fulfilled lawyers. I recently updated my will; my lawyer loves her work. Small firm, happy lawyers. But she’s closing in on retirement, and next time I see her I’ll ask if the trajectory she had (earning a comfortable living with wills, adoptions, closings on residential property) is possible these days. I know that “low end” estate work is fiercely competitive where I live- a real race to the bottom.
For kids who want to become lawyers- of course, that means law school. But for a not-trivial percentage of kids who end up in law school- it is NOT because they want to be lawyers. It’s because they can’t think of anything else to do after they graduate from college.
And in the current environment, that seems like poor logic.
No axe here. Go in peace.
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The legal profession is not a “profession” in any meaningful sense of the word. It is a racket that enriches professors and a handful of equity partners (who are stressed out of their minds) while impoverishing most new JD graduates in the form of unemployment or six figure non dischargeable debt. Almost none of them will receive a pension, join a stable union, enjoy that sweet sweet carried interest loophole, or take part in managing a large, multi-faceted private sector organization like the bschool kids. And sure maybe some pro Bono case is considered meaningful, it is not heart surgery. The ABA has done a number on our “profession”, to be sure.
It is all opportunity cost. I am sure you and your acquaintances are compensated well and find some of your work interesting. That isn’t what is at issue, what is at issue is whether there are far more interesting and lucrative options for a college grad today and the answer is a resounding yes.
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Non big law private practice is a race to the bottom in most fields. The banks have reduced closing fees immensely, the old line title attorneys are not being replaced when they retire (without a pension, and grossly relying on social security). Fewer and fewer people are hiring trust attorneys unless high net worth because of LegalZoom. You are also competing against a recent grad with 250k in undergrad/law school debt with a wife and two children and in laws to impress with a fake gold watch. He or she will break any ethical law and commit egregious malpractice for that 1k DUI any established attorney thinks is worth more in court appearances. Aside from the half of JD holders who are unemployed are undermine you, those radio/billboard ambulance chasers do all sorts of “regular folk law” and suck your business dry with their advertisement blanketing. Starting a new firm today by holding out a shingle is a fast track to bankruptcy (except the loans for tuition will not be discharged.
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The thread continues to devolve. To allow some fresh viewpoints, I am again putting in slow mode until the morning.
Yup, happens all the time to humanities/business major grads (especially from non-elite schools). STEM (specifically the T, E, and M part) is the future – full stop.
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So much interesting info. Tom, we’ll have to agree to disagree on the CLE’s - as well as, in my view - the entirely bleak view of the legal profession. I definitely see some of the negatives you’ve mentioned in practice, but I also see (as blossom noted) attorneys in mid-sized firms earning good salaries, taking vacations, and (to some degree) enjoying their work.
I can’t agree that what lawyers do doesn’t seem to matter (‘not heart surgery’). I’ve been fortunate (I believe) that my work (in collaboration w/others) has impacted many - and my friends who create estate plans, help people buy houses, facilitate changes in the law to benefit thousands - their work has touched people in man;y positive ways (and they are good, caring people - not superficial folks out to impress others).
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I will say that my D’s real passion is art (has been in shows, been studying her area of interest since age 5).
She does enjoy the law (has taken a few legal classes during undergrad - written a number of case briefs, participated in mock trial, etc.). But I think in part she is factoring in that she’d earn more money in the legal field (“I don’t want to be a poor artist”).
Lots to think about, here.
PS Meant to reference itsgettingreal, above…
That midsize firm in a second or third tier city is more and more a myth. The jobs requiring sophisticated legal work are increasingly in NY/CA/DC because of how this country’s economy is structured, with the super rich selling our middle class’ hard assets to foreign nationals and the rest of our “citizens” out to suffer in full on junk food/filthy YouTube videos/opiate addiction. To get those midsize firm jobs, you increasingly have to go to a T13. The days of going to UF for Tampa or Tulane for NOLA or OSU for Cleveland top firms are in the rear view mirror because they take 1-5 associates a year. Those firms often have equal or higher billables than V50 firms in Manhattan.
If anything, I think I have understated the bleak future of this “profession.” When you go on Wall Street Oasis, Top Law School Forum, the old JD Underground, and Outside the Law School Scam, you see what the profession has become both in big law and non big law. They will be far more vidid and descriptive than me, I don’t need to traumatize some 18 year old applying to college. My children are not quite ready to make a career choice. If they cannot hack it in other white collar roles, they will become plumbers or go to culinary school to franchise a McDonalds before ever stepping foot on a law school campus. At least they’ll “get theirs” in this scam economy without having to start an OnlyFans.
Your daughter should pursue art. You really can make a living, even if you may not have a mortgage and that security you can always be a public school art teacher. I also do not think undergrad law classes, mock trial, or case briefs give any preview of what being a lawyer is really like.
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This thread has gotten so dark and bleak.
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Your post is too negative and incorrect that sophisticated legal work is primarily in just three main locations. It would help if you identified the specific practice areas to which you are referring.
Chicago, Houston, Dallas, Seattle, Atlanta, and several other cities engage in sophisticated legal work.
The websites that you mention seem to have a lot of disgruntled posters who are given too much credence as to the state of the market.
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Tell that to blackrock. One of the largest global money managers has power wealth in equities. They are now buying up single family homes in suburbs with 0% interest thanks to the men and women of the good ole Federal Reserve. Basically they don’t pay the interest you taxpayers do. They will undercut renters aspiring to save and build a life. It is dark and bleak. Oh yeah and attorneys, the successful ones at least, pay that top marginal rate with no deduction for student loan repayment while asset managers pay a lower rate than your grandmother working as a secretary.
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Half of entry level big law jobs are in NYC. Most high end boutiques are in NYC litigation, LA and SF entertainment and tech respectively, and DC regulatory work. Those other cities do some high end work, not much in comparison.
Those websites are the consensus. For practice areas, corporate, federal regulatory, M&A, fund formation, class action litigation, commercial litigation with nine figure stakes minimum. Throw in IP too
The poster seems bitter. There are advantages and disadvantages in any career field. There are high end, well-paying intellectual practices in more cities than just NYC/LA, many ways for bright lawyers to skin that cat.
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