Average (or modestly above average) students borrowing money for education is a hugely risky endeavor, not limited to law school. For example, that supposedly stable job as a social worker doesn’t look so great when you have $300K in student loans: USC Pushed a $115,000 Online Degree. Graduates Got Low Salaries, Huge Debts. - WSJ
On the other hand tippy top students, especially (but not solely) those who attend elite colleges, may have more options open to them and their career objectives may be very different. That sort of star student can (as one example of a kid I know) go into tech sales for FAANG and earn $120K base out of college, even without studying a STEM subject. Or compete for a Rhodes scholarship then go work for McKinsey.
One of the challenges on this website is when the aspirations of a tippy top student (or one whose parents believe they are) to have a “meaningful” elite career are conflated with the aspirations of a student who simply wants a decently paying job, a house and a family, and can’t afford to be in debt.
I certainly agree with the advice to not take on too much debt and also agree that accumulating $300K in loans for an undergraduate or law degree is nearly always not worth it. I was commenting on the near-dystopian view of the country.
Not bitter. I have had a successful career outside of law due to entrepreneurial endeavors started before and after law. Law never comprised more than a decent fraction of my income, enough to matter but not enough to make me dependent on my firm. Law school was a colossal waste of time for my 20s. Anyone that age has skills to develop and worlds to explore, none of which are on a law school campus. A JD is an advanced liberal arts degree, with no relation to practice (glorified clinics included).
I understand lawyer families like yours are financially successful by most measures. It is all opportunity cost though. I went to an Ivy undergrad and a nationally recognized high school. Law is a very sub par outcome for that educational pedigree. Most of the alums from my HS who did not go into the public sector blow attorney incomes out of the water. They go into high finance, tech, consulting, and they have enjoy better tax rates. Ditto with college classmates. My law school classmates, well, golden handcuffs are real. A couple hundred thousand does not get you far in the tristate area, at least if you want your children to be literate and and safe and with a roof over their head that you actually own. And all of this with 60+ hours of work a week, not including the hour commutes NY/DC/Boston are known for.
Unless you are in ambulance chasing, DUIs, or other criminal defense, there is little arguing. Only the first pays well if you know what you are doing. Most litigators rarely enter a courtroom. Law and order doesn’t show the countless hours on west law or lexis, drafting motions on minutiae and taking countless depositions tangential to the case as you bilk your corporate client.
Side note: it is T13 now because Georgetown has fallen off. It really is not a safe bet for big law, and has not been for awhile.
This is all true. The schools are predatory, knowing the sticker price on their tuition likely cannot be serviced by the jobs their students obtain. The concept of a “Trap School” is relevant here. You may have a 3.5 or 3.7 and a 164 LSAT. That is dangerous territory. You know Cooley, Thomas Jefferson, and Florida Coastal are scams, even if they make it “free” to go on a conditional scholarship. You may not know Fordham, USC, BC, and GW are highly risky endeavors that will more likely ruin your life with debt than provide an upper middle-class existence (which most incoming law students want, whether they state it or not). Less than half of these students will get the 180k big law salary, almost none will get “midlaw” (since that is mostly comprised of laterals), so you have tons of students servicing six figure debt loads on 40-60k, basically below the poverty line. Here is the Paul Campos article, he is a law professor and an expert on student finances (Inside the Law School Scam: Trap schools)
Regarding tippy top students, yes they should take the FAANG job or go work at McKinsey. It will be more lucrative and interesting., You can also aavoid three years of schooling. .To a large extent, the good students at Ivy League colleges have shunned law school. Before the political 2016-2020 bump in law applications, the numbers had plummeted from top 20 undergraduate schools, leaving Yale and Harvard slots open to sociology and English majors from lesser institutions.
I meant that it’s hard to know when parents ask for advice whether their student is interested in and (more importantly) capable of developing an elite career with an intellectually stimulating job.
If your kid is the next Pete Buttigieg or Nate Silver then it’s eminently sensible to say follow your dream, do what’s interesting to you, serendipity will follow. Go to Yale law school and come top of your class and good things will happen. Take the Rhodes scholarship even though it’s a “waste” of two years.
But for the vast majority of kids, giving advice to “settle”, find a job that pays the bills and don’t incur debt, makes a lot more sense.
I understand lawyer families like yours are financially successful by most measures.
Be careful about assumptions.
I went to an Ivy undergrad and a nationally recognized high school. Law is a very sub par outcome for that educational pedigree.
FYI, this comes off as extremely snobbish.
Most litigators rarely enter a courtroom.
Not our experience at all. But, firm choice plays a big role.
I will agree that golden handcuffs are real, a potential pitfall to watch out for.
For those who may be interested in the field and are reading this thread: in my view, it’s not a career for just anyone, as personal ability, career interests and goals, and financial realities need to all fit together nicely. For some, they will. If any of my kids want to apply to law school, we’ll probably be in the T14-or-bust camp.