Its obvious that we won’t have a vaccine by August. So is his point that he doesn’t recommend colleges open with only testing/tracing/mitigation or not? Don’t quite follow what he is recommending here.
There was never a doubt about what D19 will do in the fall. I just had a conversation with her, just playing the devil advocate and brought up some of the arguments from this board - option to take a year off because her college experience could be “tainted” with a semester being online. Or even in person with so much restrictions and therefore not worth the college experience.
She told me, I am paraphrasing here, that doing online classes won’t ruin her college experience, but taking a year off sure would. That unless she found a cure for cancer, which she won’t, taking a year off would just not only “taint” her college experience, but also possibly her entire life. What kind of example she sets for her future children hiding in the house avoiding dealing with the difficulty of life along with her fellow classmates. Imagine years from now telling my children - you know that year, when we had the historical pandemic that changed all of our lives, and we all had to take online classes, I refused to do it because I was worried it would ruin my college experience, so I stayed home not having anything to do with school, while the rest of my friends were doing it without me. Yay me! She said she would miss out so much out of life, more than the in-person class could ever make up for. And she wants to live a full life, good or bad, not avoid living it.
I never looked at it that way, but i have to agree with her, the decision one makes today has a life long impact, may not be a physical/economic sense, but a mental/spiritual one.
These tiered offerings are a common marketing strategy, which include analyzing possible cannibalization, or decreased brand strength, of the ‘flagship’ product.
MBA programs have been innovating for a long time. At least two M7 programs (NU and UChicago) have traditional two year full time residency based programs, as well as part-time and executive program cohorts…students graduating from any of these programs write the same thing on their bios: “MBA from NU”. Many of the top tier programs have also added one year programs relatively recently.
ASU, SNHU, Purdue and others have fully online bachelors programs with significant numbers of students, in addition to their residency based programs.
Point being, schools have many examples to look to that will help inform their future strategies…change is happening, and hopefully the exercise the schools are going thru right now will ultimately decrease their aversion to change.
One of the realizations I’ve had reading all these comments and thinking about this topic is that we all realize that college is much more than just taking classes. It’s about
- making life-long friends
- social connections through a shared campus experience,
- creating lasting memories,
- (for some) knowing our children attended college X in its full glory
- us parents feeling we gave our children the “best” experience and opportunities.
All of these benefits are diminished, greatly or partially, under COVID-19.
Even when (some of?) our children seem to accept a sub-par experience, we (I) still can’t accept that. This virus is forcing us to lower our expectations, and no one likes that.
@shuttlebus sounds like yes. When they’ve surveyed students, the question always seems to be about taking one semester off not a year. On the last town hall, they said they won’t limit leave of absences. Of course, they’ve seen the surveys that say a large percent would take a break. Their plans are still a work in progress and they aren’t announcing a decision until end of June. It’s an impossible situation but a student did ask “will the Covid leave of absence rules be punitive in any way” and President Rose said absolutely not.
@circuitrider I guess I’m not clear. Two scenarios - (1) class is just remote with no one on campus. S19 would not take Bowdoin classes and could stay home and do his own break somehow or maybe go back to Maine and get a house with friends and they would all not take Bowdoin classes. In this case, being in Maine would just be to be together and not sitting in their homes which are scattered all over the US. (2) Bowdoin welcomes students back to campus but there are so many changes that S19 decides he’ll take a pass. Maybe his friends decide that too. Maybe they all stay home and do their own things. Or maybe they get a place together to ride out the semester in Maine. These boys are all XC/track guys and want the full experience. So, again, if they make the choice to not return to campus it will be because they’d rather wait and get six more full semesters of in-person class with their sport.
Not only future children but future employers. I can imagine quite a few forming a negative view of applicants who refused to carry on with college unless they had a good reason (health or financial) for doing so. How were people who refused to fight in the war treated in the past (even those who had good reasons to decline on the grounds of religion or health)?
Lots of employers want you to put the company’s needs above your own when it comes to things like travel or meetings that conflict with personal activities, and I think they may well view this sort of behavior as demonstrating a lack of “resilience”. Just like they view helicopter parents of potential employees (accompanying them to interview, phoning up on their behalf, etc) as a black mark against those applicants.
OMG. No company is going to be like “well, you were such a wuss during the pandemic so we will take a pass on you”.
@Twoin18 S19 would hardly be scared at home sheltering in place like someone avoiding the draft. I’m tired of people here judging the kids who just want to have the full experience. They aren’t spoiled. Well, at least S19 isn’t at all. If kids want to go then they should go. Not everyone wants to or needs to go this semester.
Totally agree. Give me a break.
Oh I would, I already have. I am judging my employees how they are dealing with interns during this crisis when they have no good reason too other than “it’s too much”. I am watching carefully who are stepping up to the challenges and who are not. Mind you this isn’t a sweatshop, but leadership counts!
You are judging potential employees on whether their parents are willing to shell out 70k for online learning?
^^ I don’t know about that. My original point that started the discussion wasn’t even about the future employees, it’s about decisions that one makes for themselves when they have options, about characters, and how one can look back with no regrets years from now. I would never judge people for not having options or not wanting to spend $$, that’s silly.
I was just replying to the idea that “no employee would judge” blanket statement. It’s on a case by case basic. I have 5 interns whom i am extending until August, and adding 4 co-ops in a few weeks. Many flat out refused to help these kids, when they have no other obligations (i know, because they told me), other than the laziness of helping those kids. I am not going to rate them the same as someone who stepped up during the crisis and helping others. That’s just common sense and fact base.
No, I judge potential employees on how they have demonstrated resilience in the face of adversity. Someone who got through online classes with a 4.0 and took on leadership positions despite a pandemic will have demonstrated that. Someone whose close relative died and they had to take a year off and work to take care of their family will have demonstrated that. Someone who said “I wanted the full experience of college so I decided to stay home for a year and hang out with my friends” would not.
In one of my jobs soon after college (a consulting firm where you frequently got sent to work alone with companies in a whole bunch of different countries), the CEO later told me that one of the clinching factors in deciding to hire me was that I’d taken two months after college off to backpack round the world and climb a bunch of remote mountains on my own. He thought that was exactly the sort of resilience they were looking for.
Interesting observation. When I told one of my relatives that S had obtained a summer job working for an essential retailer I got a similar response. He said it is going to look very good on his resume that he was out working instead of inside hiding, even if its not a career building position. Future employers will view him as being resilient and someone who will do whatever needs to be done.
What is the definition of a good reason?
Is it ok if one wanted to work instead of do online school?
Or be able to play their 4 years of the sport they were recruited for?
What if a student’s parents refused to pay for online school…will you penalize or look down on a person for that?
I just don’t understand why the animosity towards students choosing to do something else rather than online school.
A significant proportion of students take longer than 4 years to graduate from college, in fact the accepted measurement for rankings, funding etc. is a 6 year grad rate. The whole idea of taking a time off is not outside current norms on a pre-pandemic basis. Why would that not hold true during a pandemic?
College age students can be out there ‘living a full life’ (working, volunteering, etc.) even if they aren’t in school, and even during the pandemic.
Are college age people who don’t choose to go to college not living full lives?
It seems that even if colleges go ahead with on-campus offerings this fall, they will also be offering remote options. This is clearly necessary to provide due to those students who may run into international visa issues/travel bans, underlying health woes, temporarily quarantined kids, etc.
One thing that I think is curious is that among the parents of college-aged kids who have commented on this thread, I don’t recall [any? Many?] saying that if their kid’s college announces that on-campus is going to happen, they would personally object and keep their child home to use the remote options regardless.
I know that the risks of severe cases are low for their age group, and the risks of death for their age group appear almost minuscule. But still, the world is full of anxious people who can’t help really worrying about things. I think it’s pretty fascinating that no one has piped up saying they refuse to send their kids to campus (of course I could have missed the posts!! There are so many!!). I assume this is in part because of their low risk and in part because of the benefits of residential college that we see. Ha ha ha, maybe it’s because their kids are driving them crazy at home—Get out! ;-). Who knows?
For myself, I am definitely willing to send my kids to campus, but I admit it is a relief that they are within an hour and half drive. Would I be as comfortable if they went to school in Alaska, or somewhere else that absolutely requires a flight? I wonder. I’m sure a lot of parents on here have kids who travel quite far for school. I am impressed with the collective bravery, I guess.
I do not personally feel like there is any sort of altruistic reason to keep my kids home. I have no reason to worry more about the townspeople where their school is than the townspeople where we have our family home. My kids are already “essential workers” at a local restaurant with curbside pickup and a grocery store, so they are mingling with people in our hometown (safely, with masks, sanitizer, distance, etc). Stores are opening up this week, Starbucks is open, restaurants open next week for outdoor dining. My kids will be among people whether it’s on campus or home, and I believe they will take care about social distancing in either location. So I am not torn with any sort of ethical dilemma about having them live in a college town; I really view that as a wash.
Of course I notice a range of feelings about returning to campus among those of us who teach on campus, with several of us (including me) being ok with returning to campus with precautions, and several seemingly quite opposed. That is clearly a different issue and there will be tremendous variation in how the “adults” feel and how they assess their own personal risks; that makes sense. But I wonder how many students would opt out of returning to campus to take classes at home online if given the choice. Doesn’t sound like many. (I mean other than the kids who might take a gap year to do something besides online classes).
There are so many moving parts to making these “fall decisions”. My assumptions are that the virus will still be pretty active over the next year, no vaccine for about that same time, and the probability of a second wave is high. I think my recommendation to our son would differ based on what year of school we’re talking about.
If our S was an incoming freshman to Stanford I think I’d recommend a gap year. Why? Because while we had no concerns about his academics we wanted him to expand and grow socially, and that cannot be accomplished online.
As an incoming sophomore or junior, I’d probably recommend staying online until virus related issues subside, waiting until at least one quarter of undisturbed campus life has occurred before returning to campus. I’d feel confident to online classes because his major, CS/Math, is conducive to online class and because Stanford has very strong online capabilities and the infrastructure to support online classes.
As an upcoming senior, I would again recommend a leave of absence, so that he could take advantage of a final year on campus. During the gap year, perhaps an internship (remote) or simply consume massive amounts of research papers.
In fall 2020, our S will be an incoming grad student, and we are recommending that he consider either a leave of absence or a reduced class load until conditions to return to campus are favorable. Having access to labs are very important.
Sweden’s colleges have gone online.
“Someone who said “I wanted the full experience of college so I decided to stay home for a year and hang out with my friends” would not.”
Ah yes, those selfish 20-year-olds who choose to stay home and hang out with their friends instead of . . . going to college and hanging out with their friends? Going to online classes? Sorry, but the war analogy doesn’t scale - enrolling in classes isn’t fighting the Nazis.
People should do whatever they want to do, within the boundaries of what their colleges allow. I can’t imagine future employers judging, say, a student who might be immunocompromised for taking a semester off (a resume usually doesn’t include health information). In 50 years the noble thing people will be telling their grandchildren they did is that they stayed home and washed their hands.
Of course they can, that’s not what i said, please don’t put words in my mouth.
I was talking specifically about what my daughter said to me about HER situation and HER given options (take a year off or taking online), not my words. She wants to live a full life and dealing with it heads on and those are her decision and reasons. Don’t criticize her for it. Not cool.
This was behind a pay wall. Anyone able to read this from the Boston Globe to give a download?