@socaldad2002 I agree that there will not be a one-size-fits-all approach that works for every school this fall. Schools will have to adopt different approaches according to their circumstances and needs.
Also there is no way most of the top colleges are reducing tuition, regardless of what happens in fall.
@knowstuff two things about the Beloit model. One, it says students will have. Ire flexibility for things like internships and travel. Hm. Didn’t really think those would be a big thing this fall plus won’t kids have the same amount of work? They would likely have double the amount of work for each class in order to finish in seven weeks. Two, I worry about how many incompletes will happen. If a student gets sick in a twelve week semester or even in a nine week quarter, they have a little more time to get the work done. Sick for one week in this new scenario and yikes. And during a time when maybe a lot of kids would get sick?
@homerdog I think with regard to incompletes, there is a solution to that; they can allow extended deadlines beyond quarters for those who get sick, so the final assignments can be turned in later and the grades retroactively changed. It would be rough for sure, but people could manage. They would figure it out.
Though I do agree with you that I don’t see how it would provide additional flexibility with regard to internships and travel.
I have no faith that college kids, or most anybody for that matter, will abide by the rules if masks are to be worn all day. I work in an airport and masks are mandatory (and provided) both in the airport and on the plane. Do you think people keep them on? Heck no. I am constantly asking people to put their masks on and most of the time they put it on just covering their mouth but leaving nose exposed. I suppose greater consequences than me nagging them would help but still, people are dire.
@sunnytimes I think they would have to have harshly enforced consequences; like if anybody were caught not wearing a mask when/where they needed to, they would be sent home and have to complete the semester remotely. This does only work though if it is actually enforced.
@ChemAM It makes sense to say “that’s life” when we’re talking about grocery store employees risking their lives (although personally I think they should get hazard pay, but that’s another topic entirely) because people need grocery stores in order to live.
But people don’t need residential colleges in order to live; online classes are a substitute, even if they’re not as good as being on campus. We have to weigh a world in which hotel workers are risking their lives to care for a building full of sick students (not to mention the suffering of those students, who are completely alone in a strange environment with a serious illness), against a world in which we have online classes for another semester.
@homerdog Strictly speaking, you are correct that constant manipulation of a face cover could result in contamination. Interestingly, beyond those in the medical/EMS realm, I’ve yet to see people follow proper mask protocols anyway.
The main issue with the gaiter is its breathability. I’m not sure how much it filters out the particles I shed while breathing and talking. They do conform to the face better than most masks though.
When putting it on you can simply pinch the fabric inches below the top to stretch it up and around your face and nose. That way your fingers get nowhere near your skin. When I pull it down I grab the fabric by my Adam’s apple.
You barely realize you’re wearing it all day while it hangs around your neck.
It isn’t perfect, but it’s comfortable and keeps you cooler than a traditional mask would. The hope would be that my son, and others, might be more willing to wear a face covering if it was less cumbersome and restrictive.
And who is going to do this enforcement on campus? Remember, college students are technically adults. Social distancing will largely depend on voluntary cooperation, because there aren’t going to be overnight hall monitors making sure students don’t congregate maskless in each other’s rooms. I also don’t see how the remote “punishment” online learning would work. Surely the expelled student would demand a tuition discount, and and there is also the question of which faculty are going to teach these special “punishment” online courses on top of their existing assignments. If it’s the student’s regular professor, that’s punishing the professor for the student’s misdeed. That hardly seems appropriate or workable.
You’re wording that pretty strongly for someone who (I thought) is a student who has never had to rely on a blue collar job to make a living for yourself.
Ohio employers are (with some exceptions) required to have employees wear masks.
https://coronavirus.ohio.gov/wps/portal/gov/covid-19/responsible-restart-ohio/
There is a very steep learning curve for employers, employees and patrons. https://www.nbc4i.com/community/health/coronavirus/columbus-bar-receives-2-warning-letters-after-complaints-of-covid-19-guideline-violations/
No one knows yet exactly what school in fall will look like, but it’s likely to be very different.
https://www.cleveland.com/coronavirus/2020/05/what-asia-can-teach-ohio-about-reopening-schools-amid-coronavirus.html
@Twoin18 - no, locally we’ve done all rightish. Statewise, not so much. If you watch, read, listen to news, though, you will hear the floor nurses & docs, some of whom are kind enough to post video and audio of what’s going on around them. It’s taking a toll on medical people all over the country. Emergency responders, too. We don’t have an infinite supply of these people. There’s a reason why they’ve been begging us to stay home. The Covid cases are frightening; also, they’d like to not die and not infect their families.
Masks etc: dude. (homerdog?) I was just out for a 3-mi walk with a mask on. It’s fine. You’ll live. Also, other people get to live.
When I was out picking up veg yesterday I saw a daddy leading a little tiny masked boy down the sidewalk. No tears. Kid was used to it.
If you want a sense of why this is serious and why masks are not a big deal, then for the next five minutes, breathe in not enough every time you breathe. Just stop halfway into the breath. Then consider what a month of that would be like, and ask whether you prefer that or masks as part of normal hygiene till there’s medicine.
The virus does not negotiate. It will be making the rules for a while, assuming you want life and health.
Hotels and colleges could both refuse to create makeshift hospital wards. Why would either want that liability? Rather than deal with a bunch of entitled college students, who may or may not follow the rules, they could decide to do the fall semester remotely. It’s certainly cheaper than getting sued. College students would eventually get over the disappointment because that’s part of life.
@petitbleu @fretfulmother I recognize that I am very privileged. But that doesn’t mean we can shut down society and change our everyday lives forever to reduce an already pretty small risk to a small group of people. I think hotel workers would much rather deal with having to work in a hotel that was partially used as a quarantine unit with masks and social distancing to protect themselves than be unemployed and have to go on unemployment/welfare. While one should recognize their own privilege in making statements, you can’t use other’s privilege to say their arguments and opinions are completely invalid. It is that type of identity politics and ignorance that has divided the country to the extent it is today.
It is not fair to hotel workers. But if they don’t have customers, they’re unemployed. Honestly, I think many on this thread have a very idealized view of life and society. People of color have to worry about being shot by the cops in a way that white people never would. Women have to constantly watch their back out of fear for being assaulted in a way that men would never have to. Transgender people have to fear for their lives just for living their truth in a way that cisgender people never would. Life is not fair and the world is unjust. That doesn’t mean we can shut down life or just opt out of job requirements because we don’t like the circumstances at any given moment.
As an individual on the autism spectrum, I started out in special ed classes, and even had to repeat kindergarten because I was not emotionally prepared to proceed to the first grade. I had to work ten times harder than almost everyone else to make friends and learn how to have basic social interactions. Slowly, however, I worked my way up, and eventually became so adept in both academics and social interactions, that I have a thriving social life at one of the nation’s top colleges. So don’t tell me I don’t know what it’s like to have the deck stacked against me and be misunderstood, in some respect.
One problem with reopening: the very reasons that students want to return to campus in person involve behaviors that will put students, faculty, and staff at risk. It is simply magical thinking to believe that 18-22 year olds are going to behave like timid senior citizens when it comes to masks, handwashing, social distancing etc. Colleges aren’t prisons, and they don’t have the coercive ability to monitor student behavior to the extent necessary to ensure that the virus won’t be spread (if it’s present).
@Twoin18 - re “even if you want this to be “science led” at a state level it shouldn’t be solely about epidemiologists, what about psychologists, economists, etc. who can give input on the other side of the equation to the politicians who are ultimately going to be held responsible?”
Again, you’re not getting it. The virus isn’t at a roundtable. It just infects and frequently kills and disables, then jumps and does it again. It doesn’t care if you’re depressed or poor. There isn’t another side of the equation. If you’d like to avoid plague, you’ll accommodate yourself to it, full stop. Faster works better.
I have ravioli to make and finals to grade. ← example of accommodation
I don’t think it is. Amherst is projecting an IMMEDIATE LOSS of more than $10,000,000 from shutting down early this semester alone after only partially refunding room and board and not refunding any tuition, and they expect it will cost them a lot more in the long-run (they expect the impact of losses from this semester will accumulate next year due to long-term effects on endowment). Not to mention Amherst has already committed to letting all students who want to take a gap semester/year, and it is quite easy too; all you have to do is send an email to your class dean. In one survey they sent out, over 80% of students said they would opt to take a gap semester/year rather than do another semester online. By losing full tuition, room, and board from the majority of the student body next semester, they would lose a lot more in the long-run from closing early this semester if they stayed closed next semester, and I believe by extension, they would lose a lot more by staying closed next semester than in a lawsuit.
Also, as I have said earlier, there is probably going to be a liability shield for colleges as well as other businesses for COVID-19 related reasons, because if anyone can sue for getting sick, our economy is screwed.
Another part of life is recognizing that every decision carries some degree of risk to it and we can’t live our lives in fear. Just something to think about.
The virus doesn’t care if you’re depressed or poor. But if you’re depressed or poor then you might consider that your risk of committing suicide or losing your home or not having enough to eat outweighs your risk of dying from the virus. There is always another side of the equation.
So “accommodating yourself to it” is fine if it’s just about eating pasta and grading finals (which I assume means you still have a paycheck). If you are going to go hungry tonight because you’ve lost your job then you might decide that the level of “accommodation” you are prepared to make is somewhat different.
@ChemAM wrote:
Actually, we can. About three-quarters of the planet is composed of peoples whose ancestors have made precisely those kinds of choices. And, all within the last 100 years.
Look, I’m all in favor of colleges re-opening, if they can possibly swing it. It’s going to take a lot of moving parts coming together very quickly. But, mainly it’s going to take incredibly inspired leadership to make it all happen. Telling people that if they don’t like it, they can shove it, isn’t going to cut it.
@ChemAm, parents will not send their children to residential colleges as long as people are afraid to go to bars, restaurants, concerts, etc. with large numbers of strangers. People aren’t just staying home because the governors told them to. Attendance at theaters, restaurants etc. started falling off sharply before the stay-at-home orders even went into place. They’ll continue to stay home after the orders are lifted as long as they don’t feel safe.
College presidents won’t (because they can’t) guarantee parents that their student will be safe, in the absence of a vaccine or very reliable and complicated testing and tracing regimes. It’s not just about legal liability. Colleges are sued all the time; even if a suit is dismissed, it still costs money to deal with it. Some kid gets drunk in the dorm and falls off a balcony. It happens every semester. The parents sue. They don’t win, but the college still has to deal with it, and it’s an expensive headache. Take this and multiply it tenfold. That’s what college administrators don’t want to deal with.