@garland did you read my post about all of the doctors who think kids can go back to class in person? We just have a different view of this virus. That’s what it comes down to.
It is obvious that you prioritize the experience over the academic content and prestige associated with a college. Not everyone does (or is able to afford to do so).
In any case, even colleges that are arranging for some type of on campus in person classes are not going to have the same kind of on campus experience that they had last fall. Indeed, even students living on campus may find that some of their courses will be fully distance education because the college does not have enough classrooms to hold all of its classes in person while maintaining its desired social distancing. The non-academic social aspect of college will also change if students practice social distancing (if not, the risk of a superspreading event becomes higher).
No, if they are positive they are ‘out’ until they are no longer shedding virus. That could be 2 days or 20 days. Some people were in the hospital for 50 days.
The 14 days is the likely period in which someone who was expose will show symptoms or test positive.
Honestly, @homerdog – I searched back a few pages and couldn’t find your post on doctors. There are so many.
But, which do you mean–the researchers who are experts? Or the hometown guys who just want to send their kids to school.
My H is a former doc. One of the reasons he is particularly at risk is because his lungs are scarred. Why, you ask? From getting an active case of TB while dealing with the AIDS/TB epidemic in Newark in the eighties and nineties, where he worked in the ER, peds AIDS wards, and in community clinics.
So for god sake, do not tell me we “just have different opinions.”
@homerdog My dad (the doctor with the M.D.-Ph.D. in Biology) has said very similar things about living with the virus.
Why do all faculty think they will die? Do you honestly think that, if I thought faculty was going to die, that I would want school to go back? One, I believe that faculty at Bowdoin is allowed to teach remotely if they are older or have underlying conditions. Two, the rules in class and on campus will keep kids away from profs. Masks, social distancing with smaller classes, maybe protective shields. Even if a student has the virus but doesn’t know it yet they will not infect the professors with these changes. Three, are you all blaming the colleges too if they invite students back and they have some in-person classes? Or is this all on homerdog? I know for a fact that there are faculty out there who want to go back and teach in person. I’ve heard them with my own two ears. So your view is not the only one.
@ucbalumnus understood it won’t be the same and we don’t know the details about the return or if there will even be one yet. And the more I read and also talk to more doctors, I think some colleges will be able to return and give the kids at least a better experience than staying in their childhood bedrooms.
@garland Aren’t you a college professor? Isn’t a large part of being an academic being tolerant of other viewpoints and open to other ideas? You seem to be overly offended by homerdog’s perfectly reasonable ideas, and your attacks on her character seem unjustified, to say the least.
So, your H should teach remotely. I never said those at high risk should go back to class.
As for doctors, yes, sure researchers but also doctors I know. The last one I wrote about only has small children so he has no skin in the game when he said college kids should go back. Hometown guys? Yeah, he’s not just some random hometown guy. He’s at a major hospital in the third biggest city in the country and well regarded nationally in his field. He’s not a GP in a small town somewhere.
@homerdog I think many people on this thread are drastically overestimating the risk level associated with returning. Many measures (such as plexiglass in front of podiums and universal mask-wearing) are being put in place to prevent professors from getting infected. Plus even then, the chances of death are pretty low, at a death rate of approximately 0.3% (including asymptomatic cases) according to the new CDC figures. And to top it all off, faculty at most places are being given the option of teaching remotely; so what is the big issue here? It seems like some on this thread just want to pick a bone with schools reopening for students, regardless of the precautions they take and what new figures come out.
I am not attacking her character; I’m attacking the points she is making. Which affect my, you know, life. Those are two very different things.
I think Amherst is doing you a disservice when you suggest that differing ideas are equally valid if you are open-minded.
Do you think that way, of, for instance, the protests over race-based violence? Because I sure don’t think that all ways of seeing that are equally valid.
I don’t want to get into that topic here: this is not the place. I just want you to examine a little closer the suggestion that differing ideas are prima facie equally valid.
@garland I never said two ideas are equally valid if you are openly-minded; but her ideas clearly are a valid viewpoint, and deserve respect. Faculty at most places are being given the option of returning, and homerdog’s opinion does not really affect your life. If you are immunocompromised, there is virtually no way you will be forced to return, so you will be fine.
Also, please enlighten me as to what you mean when you suggest that “Amherst is doing me a disservice?”
I think my husband would have a hard time running chem labs online or distancing to the extent that a lecturer/leader of discussion would be able to do.
I don’t know the answer, but it’s still damn scary. I do believe we will have to live with the virus. I don’t think there’s a magic bullet. and yes, my D is suffering from isolation. but, yeah, I would vote for heightened caution until more is known and more effective treatments are found, more testing available, and better epidemiological patterns discerned. You have admitted that there WILL be cases. Cases mean lifelong debilitation and death to a significant percentage. I think, at this point there will be too many sacrificial lambs to make a too-hasty opening-up for the sake of people’s desire to feel that things are normal. It is just NOT going to be normal for
awhile and I’d vote for accepting some painful life limitations for awhile longer and preventing more deaths until medical research catches up. Maybe not to the point of a vaccine but at least to the point where we understand transmission better and have more effective treatments.
k-12 teachers, profs, and other professionals (or even staff) have to decide if they feel safe doing their jobs. The universities will have to decide which accommodations they will make, some of the employees have protections like unions or contracts or conditions covered by the ADA.
But people are making those decisions all the time. We had a Tea Shop here (sells tea, sandwiches) and they were ready to reopen. The employees all got together and asked the owners to ‘just put it off for a few weeks, until the end of July’ as they felt uncomfortable. The owners put up plexiglass, cut the in store occupancy by 50%, but said no, they needed to open. The employees refused, were terminated, and the owners turned them into unemployment. These employees were all making more on unemployment than when they worked. The $600 addition to unemployment will end just when those employees would feel safer about returning to work. Convenient.
Some people have the ability to keep working from home. Others have to decide if they want to be employed. There is no perfect conditions to return to work but if a professor can’t do the job because they can’t teach in person, then there are some decisions to be made. Retirement? Disability? Allowed to teach online only? It will be a different decision to be made by each professor and each school.
Right. No one who chooses not to be exposed should be required to work in person.
That is the what I’ve been I’ve been arguing, and many have been opposing, for this entire thread. I am so glad you’d be fine with all your profs choosing to teach online.
I know lots of profs who are not being given that choice.
@ChemAM, this is not hypothetical or abstract for @garland. It’s one thing to be tolerant of other ideas, and quite another to be tolerant of putting one’s life or one’s vulnerable spouse’s life at risk. It’s hard to understand that difference at the age of eighteen or twenty. I took many risks to my own health and safety at your age, too.
I never said that all faculty think they will die. I can’t speak for all faculty. But a lot of faculty ARE older or have spouses with underlying health problems. Lots of faculty of any age have diabetes and other conditions that put them at higher risk.
Older workers In seniority positions in many professions are now able to work online or at least while practicing social distancing, and are not typically spending hours per day with adolescents/young adults who may social distance in the classroom but congregate en masse at night. The virus doesn’t just drop to the ground after floating exactly six feet. Is it not OK for me to say that I think this is a bit frightening to live with?
This seems to be a disagreement over risk aversion more than anything else, it just happens to have manifested itself in a tug-of-war between parents/students and professors.
It’s easy to accept the risk if you’re not the one taking it.
It is more an argument between those who want to impose a risk on others versus those who would have to take those risks.
Given the intensity of this thread I’m probably going to regret this, but here I go…
I’m a professor at a SLAC in New England. The view among faculty at my college is mixed. Some are okay with heading back to the classroom, while others are not. We took a formal survey and it is fairly split. It’s generally the older professors or those with preexisting conditions who want to teach remotely. We also have professors who live with someone at risk, and they do not want to chance in-person classes.
Guess what? My college is giving us the option. Even in-person classes will need to have a remote component anyway because we need to accommodate students who are unwilling or unable to attend in-person classes. All courses must be flexible and somewhat hybrid. I am spending the summer putting together different plans for my courses because we don’t know how the virus will look when we start at the end of August. I also need to figure out a plan for breaking my class into groups to practice social distancing. For my courses with twenty students, that means finding a way to rotate them into the classroom in groups of six or seven. Depending on the college’s final plan, I may have only 1/3 students in the classroom at any given day. We do not have a lot of large lecture halls, so they asked us to think about ways to rotate in-person attendance. For my MWF courses, the students may only be able to attend one in-person class a week. Again, we still do not know if this will be necessary. Fortunately, our campus has approximately 2,000 students and there are only a few courses that have more than 25 students. I have already been thinking about outdoor spaces for my courses, but in NE that will only work for so long. The weather changes quickly and is unpredictable. (I’m not complaining. I love living in a region that has distinct seasons.) While the admins are trying to figure out safety measures and larger campus logistics, I have been working on my own plans. This will be a busy summer!
Which leads me to my larger point…
I’m a professor and I plan to hold in-person classes if my college has that option. My age is very close to 50, but I have no preexisting conditions. I am in a higher risk group because I am Black, but I feel so much is lost with remote teaching. I did my best last spring, but I cannot deny that remote classes feel inferior. Do I have disdain for my colleagues who will not hold in-person classes? Not at all. I completely understand and support their decision.
And for the parents and students that are unhappy with their college’s plans…
News flash: You have an option. No one is forcing you to pay tuition. If you ultimately decide you do not like your college’s final plans, find another school. Is it convenient? No. But there is no perfect solution here. WE ARE IN THE MIDDLE OF A PANDEMIC. If having your college student take a year off or transfer is more palatable than paying tuition for remote or semi-remote courses, then by all means go ahead. YOU have the power in this situation.