WHO also estimates that about 16% of people who get covid will never get symptoms (very uncertain estimate). So it doesn’t help very much to know that this small percentage of infected people can’t spread the disease; the huge percentage of people can. Most of the people who get covid will get sick, albeit perhaps only mildly sick. The mildly sick can spread the disease.
The WHO has been wrong so many times. “Who” knows what to believe at this point!
@GKUnion I live in NYC, and our building has not allowed any visitors since 3/12 and will not until mid-July or possibly later. No housekeepers, grandparents, etc. I have five kids, and they are dying to have a friend over, but it’s just not an option. DD has been in a serious relationship for over a year; her boyfriend is not allowed. BTW, 3 of the 7 of us had COVID but did not spread it to our other family members. I come from a family of researchers and doctors; all feel students should return to in-person to campuses this fall.
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Ironically, while many residential colleges and boarding schools are gearing up to reopen in fall, many public school districts have already scrapped the idea of an in-person fall semester entirely; apparently, the new CDC guidelines for reopening are too expensive for public K-12 schools to meet.
@karen0 You should consult an attorney.
@GKUnion That’s not the way NYC co-op buildings work which is why it’s hard to get approved by the board. I respect the wishes of the building. Our building has been a wonderful community for my family for the past 20 years. The doormen, the super have helped keep my children healthy and safe. We can do our part as a family to keep the lobby, elevators, and common rooms less dense. No visitors until the board says it’s okay.
The sarcasm seems uncalled for.
Agreed!~ But until that type of test exists…
I know at least my D’s school and I’m sure others plan to implement ongoing statistically valid random testing, which should, in theory, identify at least some of those presymptomatic and asymptomatic within a school community. That is not going on right now in communities (yes free testing is now available to symptom free individuals in many states, but there does not seem to be anything random about it and it’s obviously not mandated ). A school would isolate such cases, and contact tracing would start, much of it done probably during the time frame when the infected cases would likely develop symptoms (majority of infected show symptoms within 5 days of infection). Those asymptomatic carriers get identified and populate the ‘likely to be immune’ population of the student community and within a few days, less risk and concern that they infected everyone at a recent fraternity party. As for the superspreading event like the choir…no doubt, singing in a closed area without social distancing for an extended period of time is a high risk activity, I agree. But some of these schools are requiring daily temp checks and other symptom monitoring. A superspreader would have done so (most likely) within 2 days of showing symptom…but if this new reporting is right, we now know the superspreader was unlikely to have been purely asymptomatic. Add in new measures like all students having to take temps daily and report them on an app and that potential superspreaders who says s/he is presymptomatic might not be (speaking from experience, we didn’t take my H’s temp the two days before he was clearly feverish. He later said in retrospect, he felt ‘a little warm’ for both those days but but otherwise fine, and he couldn’t find the thermometer so he never took his temp!). Bottom line - I agree with what you’re saying, but one of my biggest concerns has been that everyone who is asymptomatic has a likelihood of spreading it as much as someone presymptomatic. So knowing that seems not to be the case - combined with ongoing testing of a fairly static body of students and staff - I think it bodes well for colleges to work toward decreasing superspreader risk.
I didn’t say it would be any less pleasant at cheaper schools. The concept of affordability was never implied. The point I intended to convey was one of parental expectations concerning the “experience” intrinsic to expensive, prestigious institutions. You generally don’t hear parents with children attending Random State U wax philosophical about the illustrious environment their student is immersed in. This virus is the great disrupter. The greater the perceived value the more difficult this year will be.
@karen0 I live in a suburb and my son hasn’t had a single visitor since mid-March. No one has been inside my home since then. I’m not saying you should have guests over. All I’m saying is that the law does not allow a landlord, or building, to exclude all visitors from visiting residents, even during a pandemic. Your admirable respect for the building policy, and your neighbors, is the only thing keeping guest out of your apartment. That’s not a bad thing.
@Karen0 does not have a landlord; as a co-op, she is a fractional owner of the property and no doubt agreed to a wide variety of restrictions on her activities when she entered into the ownership agreement. She votes for the board members who established the building policy. As she has done this for decades, presumably she does not object, but it is not a popular form of real estate ownership outside NYC.
The ADA will not cover you for Coronavirus concerns as a caregiver.
Companies are already asking employees if they would return if not for Covid. Then you must apply for a personal leave. Not medical or ada at all.
If you are not symptomatic for your current auto immune or other diesease it is not going to be granted as medical leave.
You can apply for personal leave and many companies will grant it.
If you have a spouse, child or parent living with you who is vulnerable it’s not covered that way. Currently.
If you are the person with the vulnerability you must be actively symptomatic.
These fine distinctions and company by company decisions and choices are being made in real time.
My guess is most universities value their faculty very highly and fear the professors walking out en masse if this type of decision is made regarding their peers.
They tend to be very open minded and socially aware institutions. No way they fire existing faculty with personal concerns. It just won’t happen except in a rare case until it’s written about and you’ll see them say it was a misunderstanding.
Perhaps adjuncts are not rehired or offered a contract if they say they are only willing to work remotely.
It happened today to my wife with a serious auto immune disease which she is an active treatment for at mass general. She is stable. She was not granted leave under ada or medical. Personal leave only. Decision tbd. Major International company with very diverse workforce and employee centric policies in general. I was surprised.
@roycroftmom You are 100% correct on the co-op building’s ownership structure and governance. A few of the residents of our building, who were 80 years old+ have died of COVID so I believe there is some added sensitivity. DH is a real estate professor (and runs a private equity firm), so we are well aware of the limitations from an investment standpoint. We believe the benefits of living in such a building has made raising a large family in the middle of Manhattan somewhat doable. After everything we are in the middle of, the least we can do is support the rules our co-op board.
While it is interesting to learn how coops work in NYC, I can’t imagine that many student apartments are set up that way. This discussion of buildings being closed to visitors started when someone said apartment buildings were prohibiting their tenants from having visitors. Landlords can’t do that.
@me29034 As a real estate owner of student housing near Columbia U, I can tell you this is a gray area. The courts are not functioning in NYC right now, so it does not matter. If I felt one of my tenants was making my other tenants uncomfortable with gatherings, I would consider acting. My son rents an off campus apartment in Philly which he hopes to move into this August (he goes to UPenn). From what I understand, Penn was very aggressive with off-campus students who were holding gatherings in off-campus apartments this spring after campus closed and sent a letter which parents were all copied on. I think tenant, landlord rules get murky during COVID.
Sorry
Not trying to get on you but still don’t get it. I pay around the same with my son going to Michigan OOS. He’s in the number 2 program for his field in the country. He is there since we expect a certain degree of educational curiosity. He is there for the small classes (yep about 20-25 students). He is there for the opportunity to talk with and get to know his professors. Yep, his opportunities there might be better then some other universities. My daughters Lac is a little less. Just not the name but a known Lac with known opportunities etc.
What we spend has never even come into my mind. They both continued to learn. Yes, my daughter definitely said it wasn’t up to her schools standards.
At both school though learning still took place. My son said he thought it was harder since they seemed to lay on a lot of projects and homework. Maybe to over compensate.
Plus they are both very active and known on their campuses. That never stopped. My sons job with the university was still working and meeting and planning for the fall etc etc.
I know families at it seems lots of schools as yours. I just don’t hear this talk. Both kids have had activities with kids at MIT, Harvard, Yale, Berkeley, Stanford etc. Know many at Lacs also No ones really talking this way.
Again, not trying to start something but this seems to come up like every few days in different ways.
Everyone’s expectations will be deflated.
The news that the WHO came out with yesterday, that asymptomatic and presymptomatic spread is “rare” could be game-changing if true (Can it be true? We have all heard of at least a couple of famous cases of asymptomatic spread such as that choir group, etc. Is it possible the cases we have heard of became famous because not only were they scary, but they are very, very rare??).
I didn’t see any statistics or data in the articles I read about the WHO’s announcement. But just for fun, suppose it turns out to be true, and we don’t need to worry about asymptomatic and presymptomatic spread. That those cases are rare enough to be considered freak events. One of the articles I read then implied that we could move away from social distancing—since people would know if they were contagious, we would then only need to be sure that people with symptoms responsibly keep themselves at home. Our focus would shift to policing the people with mild symptoms, I guess. What a game-changer that would be!!
I don’t understand how they can make such a surprising announcement without more facts to prove to us that we can all breathe a little easier about this. But if we are to believe it, and if they come out with more research to prove it, I do think it has huge implications for school in the fall (and basically everything in the fall). I mean, even with proof I would never expect everyone to drop their anxieties and be willing to pile on top of each other at theaters, etc right away. But at my kid’s school, the leaders were talking about a classroom for 500 can only hold around 85 people (every other row, then sit 3 spaces apart). If asymptotic/presymptomatic spread is quite rare, you may be willing to fill rooms like that with say, 200 students? (Just saying maybe social distancing doesn’t get utterly abandoned but loosened up).
Well, I am worried this bit of news isn’t going to prove to be too accurate, but I’m enjoying thinking about the possibilities.
Unfortunately, epidemiology isn’t an exact science even though it uses some simple mathematics in modeling. It isn’t nearly as sophisticated as weather modeling, which itself isn’t exactly known for its accuracy. Drawing conclusions based on small sample sizes is always dicey. We know very little who these asymptomatic carriers are, as few of them were actually tested. There have been various conflicting claims on both sides from what I read since the very beginning of the virus outbreak. I wouldn’t take these studies at their face value.
Honestly, I don’t have a lot of faith in both WHO and the CDC after 31 years in medicine. It seems they have gotten a bit political lately and especially the CDC, not sure what to believe. I have my guidelines from the CDC for my office and it pretty much hasn’t changed even hand washing as an example hasn’t changed in years. But when someone from this administration decides they don’t like what they are saying then the CDC actually changes their position… That can be dangerous. OK, this is non political but just saying… Take things with a grain of salt till real research is done with a larger group. We still pay into WHO and already threatened to pull our money out in the news…
But if true that would be great.
OK, let’s get back to seeing how many kids are actually going back to college and under what circumstances… Lol…