@me29034 yes we are there now too. S19 has probably been around maybe 12-15 different kids now. We had ten over here yesterday but they stayed outside the whole time. No distancing. We only had one new case of Covid in our zip code last week and none of these boys have traveled anywhere.
@1NJParent wrote:
Does anyone remember when phones used to used for, you know - calling people?
@circuitrider Phones are obviously not the same as true social contact. That’s the equivalent of saying that posting on social media frequently is equivalent to having a thriving social life.
No. You’re wrong. A phone call is not like posting on social media. You just haven’t had one in a long time.
Seems like the consensus here is that residential colleges will not be able to stop dorm residents or other resident students from higher risk (of spreading virus) activity, so that an outbreak like on the Theodore Roosevelt, Diamond Princess, or other ships (comparable as high density indoor environments) is practically inevitable if a student gets infected.
An outbreak at a college probably would kill few or no students due to their youth (the Navy sailors on the Theodore Roosevelt are probably be best comparison group, though some sailors are older and more are male, but they are probably more physically fit and healthier otherwise). However, unlike those on ships, college students will frequently be in contact with college faculty, college staff, and those in the nearby community. So a college needs to have a contingency plan that considers those who are likely to be exposed to college students. In addition, the undetermined risk of long term damage or disability after clearing the virus is another thing to consider, but it is hard for anyone to make a risk assessment when there have been no studies showing how common or rare that is.
In other words, it looks like the consensus here is that measures that residential colleges can take to reduce the risk of outbreaks in their dorms will be ineffective window dressing (or evidence that they “did something” in court), and that residential colleges should really be more concerned about what they need to do when (not if) an outbreak occurs.
So we don’t blame the frat parties off campus but those kids in dorms having two students over to watch a movie?
And the kids won’t be “in contact” with staff and faculty. They will be wearing masks and six feet away from those people. Just like kids are now when they go to a store or any other place that is regulated that way. Why do people keep saying the students will pass on the virus? Also they will be tested if they have symptoms and maybe more often and will be quarantined if positive.
@circuitrider I use social media and make phone calls frequently. I am saying that your comparison of social life to phone calls is like comparing posting on social media to having a vibrant social life (which is a bad comparison).
We need to understand what the college will do when the community transmission rate is above 1.
I’m just curious. For those who are most worried, do you see dorms as singles with only that one person ever in his room? Students will see each other only if in class (which we know won’t be that often since most classes remote) or when they maybe eat outside? So, college kids in dorms will practically be in prison. In their rooms by themselves taking their remote classes and bringing to go food back to their single? What happens at night exactly? They study in their room or zoom their friends? That is not realistic or healthy or, I don’t think, what colleges intend to offer.
I read Denison’s back to school policy yesterday. Not all of it but it did say over and over that they are going to try to find ways for kids to do their extracurricular activities and to bond and that it’s an important part of going back to campus.
Holed up in a room with your food and your computer just cannot be the expectation. Faculty and staff will be out in the world, going home to spouses and children and then they will come to work in masks and stay six feet away from each other and the students. Students should be able to socialize within reason (no parties over a certain number inside or outside) and then they will also be protecting faculty by wearing masks and social distancing. How would faculty like it if they were told they could not be near anyone but the people they live with? They will all take a few risks maybe seeing friends or eating at a restaurant. Same thing as our kids having a friend over to watch a movie or hang out in their room.
How are faculty and staff going to have prolonged close contact with students? There will be virtual office hours, masks, face shields and possibly plexiglass for professors, plus distancing. At risk faculty are teaching online. My DH saw 50 Covid patients a day, and was exposed to coughing, intubation and bodily fluids, and yet did not get the virus. He is 54. I know that is anecdotal, but I think it shows that precautions do work.
Having a couple friends into your dorm room is nothing like eating, working and sleeping in very tight spaces with all your shipmates in the Navy. From the NYT:
As for the phone, D19 FaceTimes almost every day with friends from home while she’s at school. That’s nice, but people need in-person socialization for well-being. Has anyone on this thread ever lived under this type of isolation for three months and been happy?
We will be discussing the housing contract in depth with D19. She can’t live at home as it’s an 8 hour drive from school. She absolutely loves W&M but frankly I don’t want her to go three months without a hug, someone to sit with her when she has a severe migraine, a cozy conversation on a rainy day, a late night study session with her classmate etc.
@ChemAM wrote:
I’m not counting the ones where you’re letting a parent know you’ve arrived safely at a destination; or, you’re sitting in heavy traffic and have nothing better to do; or, you’re waiting on line at Shake Shack. I mean a warm, extended conversation, both confidential and open-ended, with lots of reveals and the understanding that it will not be the last such conversation you’ll have. Enough of those during the course of a week should keep anyone in good spirits.
Grinnell has released their plan and it is quite interesting. Very detailed, and definitely requiring a commitment on everyone’s part.
https://www.grinnell.edu/campus-life/health-wellness/coronavirus/students
The ‘scurries’ are the most interesting part in my opinion, will be interested in hearing other’s thoughts.
@AlwaysMoving Universal surgical mask-wearing and moderate social distancing will slow the spread.
I believe college students will follow the rules for measures that appear to be reasonable and/or easily enforceable. For example, most students would agree that wearing a surgical mask is reasonable and necessary, and this could be easily enforced because you can tell when a person is not wearing a surgical mask.
Colleges (or at least my college) seem to recognize that there need to be reasonable measures, but they don’t need to go overboard. For example, Amherst has stated that large gatherings will be largely curtailed for the fall, but is still allowing extracurriculars and small group meetings to occur, and is even suggesting that extracurriculars should happen in tents, as scientists have suggested it is better to be outdoors.
With regard to your comment on what they will do “when community transmission rate is above 1” (from your tone, it sounds like you believe that will be a college shutdown), we shouldn’t forget that March’s decision was made largely in a panic, when there was no time to plan, we thought the fatality rate was much higher than it appears to be now, and colleges had no idea how to mitigate spread. Now, they do know those things.
College administrators have been in meetings for months on how to safely reopen campuses in fall, and are developing contingency plans for every single scenario; while they are uncertain of what will happen, they are planning on how to respond to each event that could happen. I highly doubt that plan could include sending all students home again, because colleges really want that room and board money. I believe the worst-case scenario is they shift to all online at some point near the end of the semester but they let students stay in residence so they get to keep the room and board money. They are preparing, and I truly believe that plan does not include kicking students out again.
Sounds great in theory, but is there any evidence that a subgroup within a campus population can be partitioned off in such a way, with the reproduction rate high in one group without increasing risk for the wider campus and community population? Would any IRB even approve that sort of study?
Seems that most administrators are planning on interventions that will reduce risk of community spread, with extra protections to isolate and protect the vulnerable. But the latter doesn’t make the former unnecessary in these plans.
I have done those too, and while they are good, they are not the same thing.
I’m glad @3SailAway posted the description of the navy ship. I don’t see a dorm or a college campus being all that similar to that ship. The density is much different. And of course now there are precautions and disinfecting protocols in place that the ship did not have.
Why is that type of outbreak inevitable if there is rapid testing, adequate contact tracing, PPE, cleaning, and places for quarantining and isolating?
I definitely don’t think that all colleges are ready to do all those things well yet, but we are still 8 weeks or so away from move in dates.
@circuitrider s19 had a two hour chat with one friend a few days ago and something I think actually counted as a date last night with a girl - another FaceTime talk for an hour. Are you saying a couple of those a week should replace what normally happens on a campus in a week? I’m not even sure where to go with that. Obviously, it’s not even close and it’s also something kids could just do from home so why go back?
My point exactly; @circuitrider seems to imply this is a good substitute for psychologically healthy social contact, when, as you have stated, it is clearly not.