<p>In todays market, the fact is not only those LAC college grads could not find job but a top professional law school grads also have problems.</p>
<p>Do you call Berkeley Law School a top professional school? How about Cornell Law School? I know a 2009 Cornell Law grad is still looking for a job, let alone this 2010 Berkeley Law grad also could not find a job and she is back in home.</p>
<p>BTW, both of them are not bad students.</p>
<p>It’s not disdain necessarily for people who choose that path because that is what they want to do it is more disdain that people continually claim that the ONLY path to financial success - and really 90% of the time that is the underlying topic. I am not and never will be convinced that the job of college is to prepare a kid for a job. I want colleges to switch my kids from being absorbers of information given to them with the expectation that they can regurgitate it to adults and replace that mindset with reasoning skills, critical thinking skills, an ability to write and speak persuasively topped with an understanding of culture, history and the world outside of the bubble they grew in. Disclosoure my S1 is a Business/English double major - to me, he found the best of both worlds. He can read a financial spreadsheet, he understands what he’s looking at when handed a budget or sheaf of journal entires, he has a comprehension of organizational behavior and some basic work related skills and he can write, speak on his feet and all that. If he would have really wanted to be an engineer I would have supported that, too. We have four of those in our family so I “get” it.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Yes. Nicely said.</p>
<p>
Some people might be quite surprised to learn that some engineering grads can also ‘write, speak on his/her feet and all that’ and that there are many humanities grads who…can’t. I find it tiresome that some posters (I’m not pointing any fingers) imply in their posts that it’s one or the other - it’s the humanities majors who all can read, write, and think but not engineering majors who in their minds are generally non-critically-thinking, non-verbally capable, lacking in writing skills, people primarily interested in chasing that high paying first job (where of course they’ll never move ahead as the humanities majors will since they’re just engineers and can’t really really move up in their career). some also imply that it’s one or the other - one either studies simply what they’re interested in at the moment without regard to the future, or they’re strictly focused on selecting whechever major has the highest starting salary when in reality there are many students, including many prudent students, who achieve a balance of the two. many of them supplement by seeking internships that will also help them receive good job offers.</p>
<p>Okay, I exaggerated a bit, but that’s the impression that comes across. I think what we really need is for people to be more objective and realize that people from all backgrounds of schools and majors (even some with no college degree at all) can do quite well in life in personal satisfaction and in attaining a comfortable salary level and the opposite is true as well, regardless of the school and major one can end up doing poorly. There’s also objective data available that some majors are in greater demand than others and people from some colleges place at a higher rate than others and that some of these do tend to result in an easier time getting job offers and higher offers. There’ll always be anecdotes of exceptions.</p>
<p>true dat, ucdad!</p>
<p>I just want to point out that networking can come from non-top schools as well. During undergrad at a 3rd tier state U, I got a part-time job in my field working as a research assistant at a research institute at my university and was able to get a few presentations/publications out of it (very nice to have when applying to PhD programs, I might add!), but I also got networking out of it, too–my grad school, it so happens, has a center that is part of the same network, and my experience with and familiarity with network really helped me get a GAship (job) there, I think. Similarly, my work with (very awesome, both as researchers and mentors) people at the institute at my undergrad opened doors for me to work with a prominent researcher in my field, who is in a different grad program in the same department. His (paraphrased) response when I emailed him, inquiring abut the possibility? “Oh, yes, the work you all do at [undergrad] is very good! I recall you have two papers in press in [big name journal of which he is editor].”</p>
<p>FWIW-- both my kids have the same “soft” major (poli sci).</p>
<p>DS, graduated 2008, from a CSU.
DD, graduated 2010, from an elite LAC. </p>
<p>Both got jobs in their respective fields immediately after graduating, starting work in June of the year they graduated. Each started at roughly the same salary; DS (who has been working longer), has been promoted and is now earning somewhat more. Both are working with non-profits which have moderate salaries but generous benefits. Both got jobs that were advertised on the internet on the agency web sites. </p>
<p>I know my d’s employer received about 300 apps for the position she was hired for-- for 2 positions to be filled. My s. had applied initially for a job in one city that he didn’t get, but was offered a position in a different city by the same employer - basically they liked his resume and passed it on to several other offices in different parts of the country, with his permission.</p>
<p>The #1 most important factor in terms of getting employment, for each, was direct, relevant experience related to the positions they were seeking. </p>
<p>One big difference between the two is that my son had very little debt at graduation – whereas my daughter has much more. </p>
<p>I think that my d’s elite private education is worthwhile for education she received, as well as a foundation for future studies. It probably helped her get her job – but she has co-workers with the equivalent who are graduates of CUNY – so obviously it wasn’t a decisive factor. It’s just that it was one more point in her favor on her resume. </p>
<p>I do NOT think that an elite private education is particularly advantageous as to employment in general. It may help with particular employers – but I think the main impact of the school attended may simply be that there is a different pool of employers.</p>
<p>Quote:“(Asians are an exception. Due to biological constraints, many Asians can do well in math-intensive majors but possess mediocre verbal ability).”</p>
<p>What on earth are you insinuating!? </p>
<p>What the hell are “biological constraints”!? That is just bloody ridiculous and BEYOND racist! Seriously, I’ve never felt so insulted in my entire life. I think it’s one thing to be prejudiced against other races, it’s just beyond racism to think that they are BIOLOGICALLY PROGRAMMED to be incompetent. </p>
<p>Anyway, I digress. I would like to ask if the school reputation matters for an accounting job? Something that’s preferably with the big 4. Does attending a state school lessen the chance of being recruited at the big four?</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Not at all. I went to our state university and was recruited by 6 out of the (then Big Eight). The now Big Four tend to recruit locally (I have several friends and family members who still work for and manage Big Four firms). Accounting is accounting - the principles are the same everywhere and there is nothing to gain by recruiting exclusively from big name schools. That doesn’t mean that the Boston office of Ernst and Young doesn’t recruit from Harvard Business School but they also recruit at Boston College, University of Mass and other area schools. As long as the firm has had a good experience hiring recruits from a particular school - they will come back.</p>
<p>BTW-this would be a good question to ask the career placement office of any school you’re considering. They should be able to tell you how many of their students are recruited by these firms on an annual basis.</p>
<p>OK, so my Asian ability comment didn’t go over so well. Fine. Perhaps my language was a little harsh. Let me reiterate. East Asians have an average visuospatial IQ of 110~ and an average verbal IQ of 97~. Asian males probably have closer to an average visuospatial IQ of 115. There has been some debate over whether Asians actually lag in verbal IQ, but that’s beside the point. The imbalance between visuospatial and verbal skills is the important part. My point is that Asians who have excellent mathematical ability are more likely to show relatively poor verbal skills in comparison. That doesn’t mean they all at reading and writing, it just means that they suck in comparison to their math ability. Many of my Asian friends display this imbalance. Some don’t. Some are good at reading and writing and bad at math. I don’t think it’s a question of learning English either, many of them only speak English. I’m interested in Asian intelligence as an academic subject, so it would certainly be a topic worthy of further research. </p>
<p>Back to the topic. </p>
<p>Accounting is a good example of a field where school doesn’t matter that much. Recruiting is primarily local as the commenter above noted. I’m guessing that E&Y is not hiring HBS graduates and undergraduate accounting graduates for the same positions. </p>
<p>The worst thing to do in this economy is to major in a soft field at a third tier school. Unless you have a great network to work with, this is not a good choice. Unfortunately, a lot of these students in this situation have been told all their lives that this route would lead them to fame and fortune, but in reality, all it leads to is a retail job that you can get without a degree. Trust me, I work with a bunch of people who are college graduates from third tier schools at a big box sporting goods store. Creative writing? Family studies? English? All here, using their learning to make our company better. To be fair, corporate does hire people from universities for office jobs at company headquarters, but they sure as hell ain’t hiring graduates from elite schools (though I’m not sure if this is elite school students not even applying for the jobs or the company refraining from seeking them out in the first place). I’m guessing that not many elite school graduates want to work in retail, be it in management/corporate or on the floor. This year, the company hired people from UF, Indiana, Upitt, and Penn St. </p>
<p>Again, even graduates from elite schools are being faced with this situation, so it’s hard to say what will happen. </p>
<p>By the way, I am Chinese.</p>
<p>My father was a mechanical engineer in Taiwan. He wrote beautifully in Chinese. He often wrote for newspapers. When he came to the U.S., he had a hard time with English. He then became gun shy of speaking or writing in English.</p>
<p>My sister, who came to the U.S. when she was very young, can write better than most white people. Maybe she inherited my father’s ability in writing, but she is just much better in English. </p>
<p>It’s a crap to say that Asians are not as good in writing. Not all Asians are good in math. Most Asians go into engineering because their parents believe it’s a good way to secure a job after graduation. Most Asian parents are not going to encourage their kids to get a soft major. My sister did - English and government, and she went on to get her law degree from a top school.</p>
<p>I think what Antiracist is trying to say is that psychometricians have found that there is a strong dichotomy between visuo-spatial IQ and Verbal IQ that appears to be unique to East Asian populations. For example, Europeans have an average IQ of 100 and when the questions on the test are analyzed it is found that visuo-spatial and Verbal IQ are both also about 100 for this population. These same types of tests have found a significant difference in visuo-spatial IQ and verbal IQ when administered to people of East Asian ancestry as mentioned by Antiracist. This difference appears to be real and while its cause is not completely understood it is likely to be at least partially genetic. This may lead to an observation that many Asians who perform at a very high level on mathatical problems may not perform at an equally high level on verbal tasks.</p>
<p>We also have to remember we are talking about differences between populations which statistics can tell us a lot about and not individuals which statistics can not tell us anything about. Therefore it is not surprising that there are people like Amy Tan and others of East Asian ancestry who have exceptional verbal skills but may or may not be particularly good at Math. If you met an individual who happened to be of Japanese ancestry you would have no basis for assuming he or she is very good at Math but only average at best in verbal skills. on the other hand, if you randomly selected a group of 1,000 Japanese and administered an IQ test to them you would probably find a distribution of scores similar to what Antiracist described. Similar results would be seen if the test subjects were Chinese, Korean or some other East Asian ethnic group. You would not see this dichotomy if the test subjects were English, French or German.</p>
<p>AntiRacist - there is a certain irony in your screen name; none the less, I understand your statistical perspective (I’ve read The Bell Curve). I would only hope that you don’t spend too much of your time looking at the world through a lens of psychometric group/race classification. It is a slippery slope from where you are to a place where your screen name becomes truly ironic.</p>
<p>I think momofthreeboys illustrates the ideal balance between education and career training. A double major or major/minor in humanities field combined with technical skills that the job market wants seems to be not only the best of both worlds but the necessary recipe for a truly well educated person/society. </p>
<p>Most engineering majors don’t have room in their schedules for too many extras (a reality that many regret) which makes it even more important to have a well designed curriculum at the high school level. The IB diploma seems to strive for this - I only hope that now that it’s become more popular it doesn’t get reduced to the same “mile wide, inch deep” format that some AP’s have become.</p>
<p>Some of the most interesting students are those with broad talents and interests - i.e. engineering and drama, business and music, etc. It isn’t always easy to figure out how to develop both the left and right brain, but it seems it should be the goal for a truly top notch education at whatever college the student attends.</p>
<p>I will now make a plug for engineering programs that do, in fact, require a reasonable number of humanity classes, and those classes are not different from those taken by their LA peers (i.e., no “writing for engineers” classes). Duke is one such institution. I am sure that there are others.</p>
<p>I’d point out that college isn’t the only place to pick up technical skills, especially basic computer skills such as familiarity with various database & financial software programs. </p>
<p>For students who are attending expensive universities & bearing most of their own costs, it can be an expensive undertaking to pay elite college tuition for skills-oriented courses that are available at their local community college. </p>
<p>An example – my daughter’s current job responsibilities include budget tracking & management on a rather large scale (for her) – she’s pretty much math-phobic but lists “bookkeeping” as a skill on her resume, so I figure somewhere along the line she was expected to track expenses at a previous job. I know that she is familiar with Excel and when I found out the size of the budget she is supposed to now track (well over $1 million) – I simply asked whether the office had QuickBooks. </p>
<p>I think the bookkeeping skills are pretty important to my d’s job – although they are an ancillary responsibility, not the main focus of her job. But the courses in business and finance offered at her elite university – which are geared to graduate MBA students - are really not needed for her job. If she didn’t already have the skills, then there certainly are less expensive and more direct ways to pick them up trying to fit them in as part of her formal college education. </p>
<p>My daughter did observe that many of her college friends who came from relatively privileged backgrounds did not have significant real world work experience, even going into their senior years at college – and its hard to “pick up” the technical skills if you’ve never had a job requiring you to use them. </p>
<p>I think its a mistake to look at a 4-year college degree program as being the sole source of work-related, vocational training. I do think it is very important for young people to learn some vocational skills – I just think that they can be learned in other contexts. The high school years are a great time to start-- again, local community colleges tend to offer a wide array of courses that will provide technical skills. Many of these courses can also be taken online – so a college student could also opt to focus on academics at their chosen college, and enroll in some online courses to pick up skills that may help on the job front.</p>
<p>I’d note that I saw foreign language proficiency as being important to many job listings – so it wouldn’t necessarily be a bad thing for a liberal arts major to focus on their language studies as the “job skill” part of their education. Not all “skills” involve computers or other technical abilities.</p>
<p>
A Computer Science program doesn’t typically directly teach any of those skills and they have nothing to do with engineering and I wouldn’t expect them to be taught at a 4 year college - they’re just application usage skills. Most people can pick up those types of skills through free resources online or through tutorials that come with the applications. I don’t know if some posters are confusing something like engineering/Computer Science with vocational training but it’s not at all the same thing.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>I disagree, Some majors do indeed convey a productivity value right from the get-go. E.g., nursing, teaching, ChemE, physical therapy, just to name a few.</p>
<p>
When it comes to engineering/CS it’s not similar to many of the vocations you indicated. Engineering attempts to teach students how to develop, design, originate, invent, think outside the box, create new algorithms, which isn’t the simple application of skills as in some of the vocations you mentioned. My point is that there’s a huge difference between the direct application of learned skills, like how to perform certain nursing procedures or how to perform particular PT procedures, and developing something new, inventing something, etc. It’s true that in learning how to be an engineer one learns some skills they can use on the job in that are necessary in order to perform the higher level functions requiring the deeper thought I indicated and these skills and the ability to use them to the higher level are what many companies are looking for and why they’re willing to pay more for people with those skills versus a ‘soft’ major who also learned skills (reading, writing, historical/political knowledge, etc.) yet aren’t as unique as the skills the engineer learns (i.e. the ‘supply’ of people with the soft skills mentioned is higher).</p>
<p>But my point is that the student with the so-called “soft” major doesn’t want a technical career – that is, you don’t attend college for 4 years majoring in art history and then go out looking for a job programming computers. And no business is going to hire an art history major with a handful of computer science courses for their IT department over applicants who are computer science majors and have appropriate certifications. </p>
<p>So the real world employment situation is more like this: the art history major’s dream job is to become a museum curator, preferably at the Met. But reality means that the newly graduated BA or BFA is probably going to get a job with the word “assistant” in the title, and the job is going to entail a lot of desk work. Perhaps the job will require maintaining and updating a database used to track the collection and acquisitions; perhaps the job involves familiarity with the software used to manage the donor database and help with fundraising. So if that art history major really wants to work at a museum (for pay – working as a volunteer museum docent won’t pay the rent) – then the person will need to gain the collateral skills that will support the administrative work in various functions of a museum. Those skills are probably taught at many less selective colleges that offer vocationally-orientated majors – for example, where a person can earn a bachelor’s degree in museology and/or museum studies – but the elite colleges tend not to offer such majors. </p>
<p>So rather than trying to double major in something “hard” (vs. “soft”) with real world employment skills – with the dubious goal of being stuck working a job that pays well but isn’t a good fit for the student’s personal interests and goals – it makes more sense to used the high school and college years to pick up the collateral skills that will make the person more employable within the context of the desired field. </p>
<p>For example, I looked on the NYFA (New York Foundation for the Arts) classifieds and found an entry level job listing at a gallery with this description:</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>OK – this looks like a pretty good job for that art history major – but what about those PC skills? Excel? Photoshop? What about the sales, shipping, and inventory management part?</p>
<p>I don’t think a person is going to increase their employability merely by taking classes in something that doesn’t interest them with the mistaken idea that there are more jobs for computer programmers than for administrative support personnel – and that somehow companies are so desperate for computer programmers that they will hire anyone whose managed to squeeze in a minor in computer science. </p>
<p>I do think a very practical and sensible approach would be for a student to start scouring job listings at the beginning of the college career, rather than at the end – and start thinking about what sort of skills would enhance prospects for employment in the desired area. Many of the skills can be picked up through work or internship experience – but if the student gets the sense that learning a particular software program would be helpful, then it certainly is worth picking up that skill.</p>