<p>Bay half the clubs are no “bicker”. And those that bicker have not so “elite” reasons of picking those that do. There is no managing to get in to the no bicker, it is a sign up for all. And interestingly some of those that are now “no bicker” are ones that USED to be highly selective. </p>
<p>The friends that visited son each belonged to different clubs. The clubs are just one venue to hang out socially, with the building of the new residential colleges more and more choices are available to the upperclassmen.</p>
<p>It’s interesting to me that so many people “disdain the wealthy elite” but are also upset when they can’t get into their clubs. Normally, when there are people whose characteristics or personalities I don’t care about, I don’t care if they form clubs because there’s nothing in their club that could possibly interest me. What it tells me is that people <em>do</em> perceive “the wealthy elite” as having something they want a part of, which is why they’re upset the wealthy elite self-segregate.</p>
Well, the story is a little more complicated than that. As you note, half the clubs are selective–and (last time I read about this) each year about 20% of the junior class tries to get into one of the selective clubs and fails to do so. Those that choose to do so can then join one of the sign-in clubs. About three-quarters of upperclassmen are in one of the clubs, and (as I understand it) they mostly live in different housing from people who aren’t in clubs. There are significant differences between the bicker and sign-in clubs in terms of racial make-up and family income, and there are still a couple of clubs that are (reportedly) highly exclusive in terms of income, connections, or appearance. It may be that this has changed, and continues to change. But this is a pretty major element of campus life at Princeton, and some people simply would prefer not to go somewhere with this much social stratification on campus. Of course, many people can just ignore it, as Pizzagirl suggests, but others would rather go somewhere where this just isn’t a part of the culture. Just as you can ignore the basketball frenzy at Duke–but you might prefer to go somewhere with no basketball frenzy at all.</p>
<p>This was my daughter’s experience as well. The Final Clubs were very important to the Final Club people (a small minority of the school), and pretty much everyone else ignored them. To the best of my knowledge my daughter and her friends were not offended by the presence of the Final clubs at all. They just were not a part of their world - as though the clubs simply didn’t exist.</p>
I think this is something you have to research–if there’s something at a school you don’t like, how easy is it to ignore? It might be really easy–as with the finals clubs or (in my opinion) the secret societies at Yale. But at some schools the Greek scene would be pretty hard to ignore, as would other aspects of a lot of schools. You can’t ignore the fact that Smith is all women, for another example.</p>
<p>Absolutely. I can see, for example, at some of the larger / Southern / SEC schools, the Greek scene dominates, it’s highly competitive, often driven by wealth and social status, and you become persona non grata if you’re not in one. And I personally would avoid such schools like the plague. However, there are also a lot of places where it’s indeed as mathmom and coureur mentions – they’re important to the people in them, and unimportant / irrelevant to the rest. (This is also how my daughter talks about the societies at Wellesley – only when prompted, since it’s irrelevant to her. Something some other girls she vaguely knows like to do, whatever, not her thing, who cares.) </p>
<p>I think the trick is not acting as though the presence of any of these kinds of things in general always turns it into the case where it’s hard to ignore and all those uppity elites are doing all kinds of uppity things and making the non-uppities feel bad about themselves and so on and so forth. Well, no – in a lot of those circumstances, it really IS the non-uppities caring a lot more about these clubs, and feeling slighted by them, than they’re willing to let on. </p>
<p>I think you have to examine your own feelings about things and why certain things provoke the reactions they do. It’s very clear, for example, that cobrat is willing to charge the societies at Wellesley as being elitist and upper-crust and snooty and pinkie-in-air and setting the wrong tone on the campus when indeed regular students like my daughter think – yeah, whatever, a few girls do that, good for them. Why are there such insecurities? Why can’t you be content with your own self instead of projecting that people who aren’t paying any attention to you are actively looking down at you?</p>
<p>Exactly. My oldest went to a school that turned out to have a large Greek scene. I don’t think this influenced her choice one way or the other, but there it was. Her freshman year she rushed, since all the kids around her were doing so, and she got into her “first choice” sorority. By the middle of her sophomore year, due to lots of reasons, including just plain old being busy with other things, she withdrew, or whatever it’s called, and moved on. She couldn’t make her different interests work with all the meetings and whatnot and kept getting fines. Also, she just found herself doing other things more.</p>
<p>After she withdrew, she never noticed the Greek scene again. I never heard her say anything about it one way or the other. When we were at her graduation, a couple of the girls who were still her friends and her were reminiscing about the early days of school. Nothing bad happened to her. It just didn’t turn out to be “for her.” A couple of girls held it against her, but she genuinely never noticed except to mention in passing that that was too bad. End of story</p>
<p>But, I really can’t understand why anybody cares about what anybody else does in this situation. All your life you will run into this kind of thing, and all sorts of people will make all sorts of different decisions about what is and is not important and will choose their friends and associates accordingly.</p>
<p>In the end, though, if the goal (which I personally think to be less important than some might) is to hang around with the wealthy “elite,” whatever that means, then the goal needs to be getting onto the charitable boards and foundations, and, frankly, there is a path for anyone to do this… from a money family or not. </p>
<p>carry on.</p>
<p>ETA: Just wanted to add that I have no gripe with anyone who wants this. It’s as valuable a goal as any, I suppose. And if it’s what someone wants, they should go for it, imho.</p>
<p>I agree. D1 found it easy, in fact effortless, to ignore the Final Clubs at H, but D2 found it pretty much impossible to ignore the frats at Dartmouth. Even though she and many of her friends did not join a Greek org, the fact that those organizations dominated the school social scene made their presence very difficult to ignore.</p>
<p>At Yale, it would be hard to completely ignore acapella. Earplugs might enable you to do this, but they might interfere with normal conversation.</p>
<p>Right. And I think there’s a fundamental difference between the nuance of what Hunt and you are saying – which is, at some schools, social club culture is dominant and difficult to ignore, whereas at other schools, club culture is largely irrelevant if you’re not in it – and the blanket, one-size-fits-all that the existence of social clubs is ALWAYS difficult to ignore, sets a dominant tone, perpetuates classism, etc. </p>
<p>I would say, however, that to the extent that Cobrat’s description of his classmates at Oberlin has truth to it – that the social approbation of being overwhelmingly liberal, dressing “down,” sneering at rich people, etc. can be just as conformist and oppressive as the social approbation from being social director at Kappa Kappa Whatever. I suspect he’ll miss this point, however.</p>
<p>All your life, some people are going to like you and some people aren’t going to like you. That’s the way of the world. Why is it “worse” when those people are wealthy?</p>
It’s worse if it’s somebody who has some kind of power over you. If you pretty much know from the outset that you’re likely to be excluded from a significant part of the social structure at a school because you lack the wealth or connections, I think it’s justifiable to dislike that. I agree that this is quite different from feeling miffed because there’s a little exclusive club on campus.</p>
<p>Hunt brings up a good point. Campus tone can be particularly important at a small college like Reed.</p>
<p>It’s less of an issue at large schools. If there are 10,000 kids on your campus, you can ignore the dominant culture and find your own way, if you prefer, and you can still have friends and a social life.</p>
<p>yes, and the goal is to be free of all of this. The goal, imho, is to be able to play tennis at the club if that is what you want and to STILL be able to have your friends in the arts and the rebel class. The goal, at least in so much as what I tried to teach my own kids, is to make your own choices based on your own preferences.</p>
<p>Any kind of group of people, be they dressed in black or Lilly Pulltzer, ought not have control over you. Be the kind of person who can wear both if you want, or neither, if you prefer. (Using clothing as a metaphor, though it’s apt.)</p>
<p>To what extent are these discussions about people who actually were / are excluded from significant parts of social structures, versus people who merely fear the possibility excessively? (That’s rhetorical.)</p>
<p>^^^
Pizzagirl, I think there’s also a third group. In some instances, belonging to the social structures requires additional money beyond the ordinary cost of going to college (for dues, clothing for fancy social events, etc.). Some students are not excluded and do not fear being excluded. Instead, they exclude themselves from consideration because of limited funds. But even though it’s a voluntary choice, they may still feel left out.</p>
<p>Well, and what cobrat doesn’t realize is that he’s describing JUST AS MUCH oppression. Just from a different angle.</p>
<p>After all, what’s the fundamental difference if you’re being sneered at if you don’t adhere to Lilly Pulitzer, Prada and summers in the Hamptons – or if you’re being sneered at if you don’t adhere to thrift-shop clothes and grunge music and the Green Party? Frankly, cobrat, your friends do a lot more sneering and disdaining than the rich kids.</p>