<p>I'm a rising senior from Pennsylvania, and I was wondering: If I plan to continue my education after getting my undergraduate degree, how important is the school I choose for my undergraduate education?</p>
<p>More specifically, I'm hoping to enter a biochemistry or molecular biology program for my undergrad in the hopes of getting into a grad program for biotechnology or genetic engineering, and I wanted to get peoples' opinions on what kind of school would be a better option. I have the test scores, grades and extracurriculars to get into a very competitive school, possibly an ivy (1590/1600 SATs, 4.25 weighted GPA, involved in the school), but I know I could probably get some good money if i went to a less competitive university in the honors program (currently, i'd be looking at PSU, UD, or Pitt), and I'm not sure i'd want to graduate with a lot of debt, knowing that I'd still have to continue my education to be competitive in the field. What are your thoughts on the experience/cost trade-off, knowing that the college I go to for my undergrad ultimately won't matter much in terms of my career?</p>
<p>And, while we're on the topic, could anybody recommend schools in the New England/Mid-Atlantic/Midwest that have strong programs in biochem, molecular biology, or bioengineering?</p>
<p>I’m not very knowledgeable of the PhD process or acquiring one but from what I understand, getting a phd means you don’t pay for your studies, you’re given a stipend to live off or essentially being paid to finish your phd.
There’s a parents forum that discusses this, and from the few phd students i’ve talked to(check the forum and double check) they pay you like 20-30k a year for you to live off of, that is of course assuming that you’d be doing research and being a TA at whatever university you go off to.</p>
<p>But from what I know of Reed and Swarthmore, I think most top LACs tend to send the most kids to phD programs.</p>
<p>it does not matter too much, and the tradeoff of going to any ivy+ school is that you are likely to get less attention because you will no longer be a stand out. I dont know your family’s financial status, but it is possible you will get a good FA package.</p>
<p>I would recommend going to an instate school and doing honors there than going to a non-top 20 private school that would offer you a free ride. The best schools (except duke) do not offer full scholarships. I know pitt gives out huge amounts of money to try to lure students.</p>
<p>If you’re interested in getting a PhD, the school you choose is important insofar as it provides you with ample resources to get research experience and professor recommendations so you can be competitive for PhD admissions. You should try to find a school that provides ample research opportunities to undergraduates, and where you get to know professors well enough that they can write you great recommendations. The one explicit advantage of attending a top school when applying to grad school is that you will be given much more leniency with regard to GPA, and you don’t have to be a standout with a perfect GPA.</p>
<p>
This is true. Your program will pay your tuition and will pay you a stipend to live off. It’s a pretty good deal, all things considered. :)</p>
<p>Gourman Report ranking for undergraduate biochemistry</p>
<p>Biochem from Gourman
Harvard
MIT
UC Berkeley
Wisconsin
Yale
UCLA
Cornell
UC San Diego
U Chicago
U Illinois
Columbia
U Michigan
U Penn
UC Davis
Brandeis
Northwestern
Princeton
U Iowa
Michigan State
Rice
Case Western
Purdue West Lafayette
Oregon State
NYU
U Oregon
Rutgers New Brunswick
SUNY Stony Brook
U Texas Austin
Iowa State
UC Riverside
Penn State University park
USC </p>
<p>Gourman Report ranking for undergraduate molecular biology</p>
<p>molecular biology
MIT
Caltech
U Wisconsin Madison
UC Berkeley
U Colorado Boulder
Northwestern
UC San Diego
U Michigan Ann Arbor
Harvard
Princeton
Carnegie Mellon
Cornell
U Penn
Purdue
RPI
SUNY Buffalo
U Arizona
U Texas Austin
U Washington
Penn State UP
Vanderbilt
UC Santa Cruz</p>
<p>Note that the Gourman Report ranks only universities, leaving out the small schools that provide better preparation in many cases (according to statistical results).</p>
<p>The fact that a LAC has a higher percentage of graduates eventually getting a PhD does not mean they provide “better preparation” for graduate school than research universities. It may simply mean that, for multiple reasons, the percentage of students who apply to graduate school is higher in LACs than in some research universities. </p>
<p>Based on their faculty profile, available course offerings and existing research facilities, I personally doubt LAC’s provide better preparation for PhD work than the top research universities, at least not in math, engineering or natural science fields (I can’t comment on arts, humanities, and social sciences).</p>
<p>bruno, you left off “in many cases” which covers your objection. Have a look at the Reed link; it may be an eye-opener. Your basing leaves out some of the most pertinent issues.</p>
<p>So that would mean that students interested in future PhDs tend to concentrate more heavily in the student bodies of top LACs and that, therefore, those LACs probably tend to focus their curriculum, teaching, and academic programs more heavily on their future PhD students. That’s all part of the equation.</p>
<p>I wouldn’t say that LACs taylor their programs more or less than comperable universities towards producing PhDs. The types of students there are slightly different in terms of goals when you compare LACs like Swarthmore and Reed to universities like Penn and Dartmouth with the former being more intellectual and the latter more preprofessional (premed, prelaw, wall street bound). Any top college will provide a great education and smart peers. There are advantages in attending a research university in the increased research opportunities and ability to take graduate level courses. I can’t see any clear advantages to attending a LAC aside from intro science classes being significantly smaller.</p>
<p>As someone said earlier, it’s best to ask each of the schools what resources there are to prepare for graduate study in the fields you’re looking into. For example, research opportunities, study group sessions for biology… Don’t think that the percentage of people who get into graduate school is an indicator of the quality of a school. Percentages for liberal arts colleges tend to be higher, I think, simply because the students there aren’t pre-professional, so they need to get another degree to be more marketable.</p>
<p>More undergrad research opportunities, closer mentoring relationships between professors and undergrads, more interactive education (presentations, etc.), perhaps more likely to have worked with a faculty member on a senior thesis. In some cases, a more grad-school like experience:</p>
<p>
[quote]
At the end of the senior year, students are examined by scholars external to the College in four subjects, three in a major and one in a minor (or four related subjects in a special interdisciplinary major). Evaluating the written examinations they set, orals they administer personally, and often a 10- to12-page portfolio paper in each of the subjects, the external examiners are responsible for assigning the only college-sponsored graduation honorifics. At the end of the honors examination process, departments normally meet with the examiners to solicit feedback about the performances of their students and their programs more generally. The Honors Program constitutes an exceptional evaluation mechanism, not only of individual students, but also of our entire academic program. In their written comments, external examiners eloquently characterize Swarthmores Honors Program and the quality of teaching that it confirms. As one recent examiner reflected:</p>
<p><i>When faculty members prepare students to be tested by colleagues outside of their institution, they reach beyond their own bank of information and well beyond the textbook to groom scholars who are conversant with a wider scientific community. This not only enriches the way a faculty member prepares for a coursealways mindful of the broader spectrum in which he or she teachesbut also prepares students for the next steps in their intellectual journey. As a faculty member who evaluates graduate applicants, I seek out Swarthmore honors students because I know that they did not simply memorize content, they learned to think like first-year graduate students.</i></p>
<p>I’ve seen the Reed link many times on this forum and, I insist, it tells me nothing about Reed’s graduates being better prepared for graduate school than graduates e.g. from UC Berkeley or the University of Michigan. </p>
<p>All that the link shows is that the percentage of graduates that go on to earn a PhD is higher at Reed than at Berkeley, even though, in both cases, they only account for a fairly small percentage of the overall alumni body. The table has no information e.g. on how many Reed graduates actually applied to PhD programs and what their success rate was compared e.g. to the same figures for Berkeley.</p>
<p>I would recommend the Vagelos program at the University of Pennsylvania- it has to be one of the most demanding, structured programs of its kind in the country. Also, MIT, Harvard, Columbia, Yale, Chicago, Northwestern, PSU Schreyer honors, Swarthmore, Johns Hopkins, Duke… UD has an awesome chemical engineering department.</p>
<p>About the stuff interesteddad posted, that’s really amazing for those in the honors program at Swarthmore. However, would other LACs offer similar programs or is that something unique to Swat?</p>