Science Manuscript Authorship and Ethics

Graduate School
1

<p>Hello, I need some help and need it without revealing who I am (in fact this is not about me but my dearest friend who fears her job and career are about to be destroyed because she wants to fight being discriminated again by a male dominated ivy league setting). On that note I will write this in the first person, assuming their identity. </p>

<p>I am a post doctoral fellow at an ivy league school. When I began I inherited a project that was already outstanding but needed some work to gather more data, and had to be coordinated and written for submission. The project was started by a previous graduate student with the help of another lab member. Both have since left, over 2 years ago. In the meantime I have controbuted over 35% of the figures/content, and as mentioned wrote the manuscript for submission. In an effort for fairness, we made am agreement that all three members would be co first authors. However the original graduate student who began it has basically threatened the PI to pull his support if he is not the first auther, his buddy the second listed, and myself listed third. His main reason is that he is owner of the intelectual ideas and thus controbuted far greater than all others. Because of this he has further threatened an ethics complaint against me for stealing his idea.</p>

<p>In my experience and according to every peer I have spoken with, the former graduate student should be grateful for still being listed as a first author as most would have dropped him to a contributing role - for it's the usually the final person who coordinates all the data and writes the paper for submission, and will deal with the revision process who is the first author, alone. Again I would be happy to recognize their contributions were it not for their obvious sexual discrimination against me.</p>

<p>You see, the first two male grad students made a deal with the PI to be co first auhors. ONce I arrived it was then determined that in current form, the paper was not good enough and two years of my post doctoral appointment would be involved with finishing this item. They do not think I deserve any credit.</p>

<p>The PI is inclined to side with the former student due to the threats and at each stage has required that I prove myself, but not them. Depsite several of his collgues indicating I should be sole first auther, the PI has again sided with his boys who he views as "like sons to me". And has further set me to task to prove myself. The other grad student has yet to even mention contributions. Based on communicates it is apparent the second grad student isbuddy with the first, and while may have helped here and there when there own project permitted, was not a significant contributer at all. Yet, because he is one of the boys, I am bing asked to be third auther and sacrifice my career. Why? My opinion is that it is because I came from a state school as undergrad, and not "ivy league" settings until now. Add in the fact I am a woman and a mother, and you have the reason they do not think I am equal to them. </p>

<p>Problem is what do I do? How I do back down to these three men and still look my daughter in the face and say be strong? How do I fight against this and not ruin my career? I have seen professors hols green cards over a foreign students head to get them to work more hours and more years simply because they are cheap controllable labor. I will not stand for people being used and abused, but again, how do I fight this without killing myself?</p>

<p>thank you and please help me~!~!</p>

2

<p>Is there a university ombudsman you can discuss this with? Or a departmental/school committee?</p>

<p>You would need to put together a package of evidence to support your grievance - keep all e-mails, memos, etc. associated with this matter.</p>

3

<p>Yes I have the emails indicating their opinion of my contribution, the conversations between other professors on authorship guidelines in the field etc. I am meeting the ethics board in two days based on the complaint the former student’s intellectual property was stolen. </p>

<p>However this board will only say that the decision is up to the PI. Which it is, and he is the one who prefers to favor the boys depsite what his colleagues tell him is right. This is soundly documented.</p>

<p>I am scheduled to speak with a discrimination lawyer tomorrow. </p>

<p>I have not explored an ombudsman but I will certainly look into once I hit reply here.</p>

<p>I just want to gather as much info as possible. </p>

<p>thank you!</p>

4

<p>(I will adopt second person for you) I was in a similar position recently that was not quite as bad but I think that making too big a deal of it will certainly have deleterious effects on your career. Your advisor is likely well-connected and will carry a grudge forever if you lawyer up.</p>

<p>Everyone knows that ideas are cheap in academia and that it’s only through hard work does anything actually get done, and pretty much everyone gets screwed at some point. What I did in my case to compromise was to let it slide and then write another paper on a slightly different topic with myself as the first author. I believe Science keeps its articles short and so there is ample room for writing a paper that fleshes out certain aspects. Your paper probably won’t get into Science, but it will get in somewhere respectable and you will get your first author.</p>

5

<p>Got to agree with gthopeful. If you lawyer up on this and make a federal case out of it, so to speak, it’s not likely you’ll be able to get any usable recommendations, etc. from your colleagues.</p>

<p>You need to explore informal options first, and then decide whether or not it’s worth your time and effort to fight this battle. We all have to pick them, and if this is the hill you want to die on, go for it. But you don’t have to die for every hill.</p>

6

<p>I say drop it and just settle for whatever they’re doing. If you’re really good at what you’re doing there will be plenty of more publications for you to come, including first-authorships. </p>

<p>You won’t be working with these guys the rest of your life so don’t worry about it.</p>

7

<p>I thank everyone so far for their thoughts, and I have to say I agree with the majority. It is hard swallowing my self respect and being rolled over/ However the fact remains, if I go lawyer, I go home without a career. </p>

<p>Personally I was fine being listed as a co frst author, at the end of the list. I only started digging my heels when it became appearent they wanted to treat me like a slave and cut me out. I had to stick up for myself.</p>

<p>I am not sure what I will do, but I promise to check back here for more advise, and post the final solution. </p>

<p>thank you again</p>

8

<p>As someone who was a victim of a, shall we say… an ethically questionable manager, I would have to agree with you on this one. Their argument has nothing to do with you being a woman, or not going to an ivy league univ. for undergrad.; it centers around the “Old Boys Club”, and nepotism. I might include that I am an African American, so I have been on both sides of the fence on this, and I have both benefited from nepotism and have suffered from it. I saw this at my old company, and that is why I left. </p>

<p>For you, it is a different situation. I would talk to the department head and ask for a request to transfer. This is rough, but as my grandmother used to say, “Sometimes you have to ease your hand out to the lion’s mouth.” Just make up some reason, “My interest have changed,” or “I want to take my career in a different direction,” and always remain graceful and poised. If this is allowed, just find another lab and don’t mention it ever again. If not…well you will have to calmly bring up your concern at a scheduled meeting with the PI. Just write out your concerns the night before and calmly state them in the meeting. As a minority in this field, I can tell you that the last thing you want to do is go into a meeting with your boss and get “hostile” or “emotional” because that will and can be used against you. And leave it at that. If he doesn’t take it into consideration, then his loss; but, you proved that you were no doormat for him to wipe his shoes on. But, this will also cause tension, because people in power are not used to people under their direction speaking their minds, or telling them why they are wrong. </p>

<p>Finally, I would recommend that the post doc get a faculty member, (whether female or male) to become her mentor. This is a double edge sword in favor for her because. 1) You will always have someone in your corner helping you to correctly direct your career, 2) When BS like this happens, nothing feels better than bringing a faculty member, or a senior faculty member (tenured) into that scheduled meeting and have your PI tell lies and questionable things to his/her colleague. This will look poorly on the PI and will stack the deck in your favor for that transfer to a different lab. You see, he can lie to you and threaten you; but he can’t lie to and threaten a fellow tenured prof, or a fellow faculty member. If you need a mentor, just go to someone you admire in the department and schedule a meeting with him/her and ask them to be your mentor. Most will say yes, but you have to nurture this relationship and treat it seriously. A mentor/mentee relationship is a social/professional relationship. If you are handling your responsibilities, then they will always be in your corner, and will pass you opportunities that come their way, like funding ops, and possibly jobs. But if you are deficient, then they will not deal with you.</p>

9

<p>I would not request to transfer, most honestly. I would begin by dealing with this issue directly. As a post-doctoral fellow, unless you are in a formal post-doc program there may not be the option to switch - perhaps you came in to work with a specific faculty member or research group, under their funding.</p>

<p>I agree that lawyering up at this point is not a good idea. It will be extremely difficult for you to prove sex discrimination, as it doesn’t seem that anyone has overtly said anything like that and the only indicator that it’s even a possibility is that the PI and his two grads are men and you are a woman. That’s not sufficient for a discrimination case.</p>

<p>The first and easiest way to deal with this is to talk to the other two authors directly. Do not let them go through the PI. Contact the other grad students, by phone if possible, and ask them why there has been a change in your aforementioned agreed arrangement to have you share first-author status. Be polite but firm, and emphasize that you do not think this change is fair, given the amount of work you have put in on the project. Remind them of the email exchanges you’ve had.</p>

<p>I don’t think the board would say the decision is up to the PI. At this point, you are a scholar yourself and so are the former grad students. Why would he make the final decision when he’s not even an author on the paper, from what it seems?</p>

<p>I agree that finding a mentor is a good way to proceed from here on out. Your mentor need not be your PI.</p>

10

<p>Again I thank you all for your advice, asyou can see this whole incident has me pretty frayed at the edges. </p>

<p>The resolution to this situtation is a compromise of sorts. While I m in the right to be sole first author it was not my ntention to usurp this paper. However it is also not my intention to let these boys roll all over me. In science at this level, you have NO CHOICES! You are stuck and there is no HR department. Each lab is a little dictatorship. You just do your best.</p>

<p>The PI decided that the order would be the original grad student, myself, and finally the other grad student as co-first authors. This is fine by me. I am not relegated tot he background and it shows my contribution. Would I like to be sole first author? Of course, but this resolution is good for everyone.</p>

<p>Anyhow the second grad student, not the one causing all the problems, called me yesterday after the PI made his choice. He first called the PI to complain, but wen the PI finally explained my position and the other grad student, a miracle occured. He called me to apologize. I was floored. He said he ws supporting his friend from a place of igorance and after learning my role, supports this decision and me. Amazing result that was more than anything I expect.</p>

<p>Of course the original grad student again refused to accept my name. He said he would sleep on it and he is meeting with us all today. The PI basically reemed him a new one, and said this was the way. As far as the threat to pull the paper, I have a dozen first author papers and two dozen others. The PI is ready to retire except for a few loose ends. We do not need the paper. The original grad studnt does. Let’s hope his pride is not as big as his common sense.</p>

11

<p>I only wish your suggestions were viable! IN a science lab, these choices to not exist. If you were a post doc, grad student etc. and after your first year your PI does not gain tenure, the lab is essentially kicked out and fired. The grad students would to apply to a new laband start over. Harsh reality but there it is. </p>

<p>Also labs a little dictatorships run by people whose drive is to publish, publish. publish. It’s a ****ing contest for sure. It’s also cutthroat! My situation is common, and compared to others not really even significant. As mentioned, I knew a grad student who should have done a masters in 2 years but the PI kept him for 5 years. Why? Because he rocked out quality papers and was foreign. He had no rights an his career would be over if he exposed the PI. 3 years wasted as a slae to this PI with NO HELP! </p>

<p>This is why I fight. I refuse to be singled out for whatever reasons and I refuse to relegated to bustander when I pour blood sweat and tears into my work. </p>

<p>I am happy where we are and hope today works out.</p>

12

<p>IN a science lab the PI (professor) is god. Plain and simple. All work by all grad students is claimed by him. Think of it like Microsoft. Their developers make things for Bill Gates. Bill ownes everyhing but likely has not written code in two decades. Same here. Think of professors that win noble prizes in science? It i mre than likely that they drove the main ideas and progression, but a grad student likely came up with a hypothesis, tested it nd found gold. But the discovery belongs to the professor who then will usually acknowledge the grad student who ran he study - as first author. All professors are the final authors on every paper from their lab. Its the quality and quantity that define their career. That is why professors like cheap pliable foreign labor. They work 20 hours a day, 7 days a week, don’t take holidays and do this for years while you hold their visa/career over their heads.</p>

<p>I am not saying this is true everywhere for everyone. </p>

<p>Also the ethics panel rendered a decision, as we thought, it is up to the PI to decide. Period. The PI is god in their lab, and they set the order. Usually based on contribution level and who wrote the manuscript. But like opinions, they vary from person to person.</p>

<p>My issue is my PI is buddy buddy and does no want to hurt the old grad students feelings. Theold student knows this and is bullying the PI to get his way, like he did for years prior. Fact is some people are whiney little babies. He is ati-female, elitist and looks at me like a servent. No amont of dialogue will change this. We will just agree to disagree and move along.</p>

<p>Bottom line, I am happy now.</p>

13

<p>I’m glad everything worked out, more or less. The academic system and its hierarchy is beneficial to all when it works in an ideal manner, but, of course, that doesn’t always happen. Egos, politics, and personalities can get in the way as it did in “your” case.</p>

<p>A lot of time grad students and post-docs have to swallow stupidity in the long-term interest of their careers. Think of it this way: if someone has to fight that hard for a first-author credit, chances are that his career isn’t going as well as it should. You don’t need the paper, but clearly the other person does. That’s says a lot.</p>

14

<p>I’m glad this was resolved.</p>

<p>* While I m in the right to be sole first author it was not my ntention to usurp this paper*</p>

<p>Why do you think you have the right to be sole author? By your own admission, you wrote the manuscript but used research that another graduate student(s) had done the bulk of the work on. Authorship in the sciences isn’t only determined by who writes the manuscript; intellectual contribution is important, too.</p>

<p>I’m in a science lab and I’m not sure I agree with all of your statements. What a PI is to the students depends mostly on the PI’s personality and the kind of work that is done. In neither of my labs is the PI “god.” He’s the boss, yes, but that doesn’t mean that we do whatever he wants when he wants it. For example, no PI can MAKE an MS student stay 5 years if the student doesn’t want to. That was the student’s CHOICE – maybe it was influenced by pressure from the PI, but still their choice.</p>

15

<p>The PIs that I have come across are usually good, reasonable people; but it seems as this one is an A-hole, who leans on his title to abuse his students. I think that this person has described a very abusive, ego driven PI who will continue to abuse his students/post docs as he sees fit. The thing about the green card utterly twisted my stomach. This will not be her last run-in with this guy, and she needs to run for the hills. I am telling you, from experience in both an academic and professional setting, this will not turn out well in the long run. </p>

<p>My mentors both had simular situations in academia and in industry, one at Carnegie Mellon and another at Georgetown. In fact, one almost got into a physical altercation with his PI when he was a post doc. The only way he got out of it was that the department head got wind of the situation, and took the necessary actions to diffuse the situation; resulting in my mentor being taken out of his group and placed into another group. Nothing is written in stone, and everything is negotiable. Is this PI the only one with funding, or the only doing research in this area? Did she sign a contract? You can always leave, beacuse if she is a truly gifted student that you mentioned, then she can always get another letter of recommendation from her graduate advisor and her comittee members to get another Post-Doc position. I know how they say things usually work, but that’s not the only wat they work. Anything can be changed or altered.</p>